Interview with Fred Hill
Title
Interview with Fred Hill
Description
Fed starts with some comments on 1000 bomber operation which he flew in a Hampden while at OTU after his first tour. There is some comparison made between Hampden and Wellington, which he flew on his second tour on OTU. He mentions his posting on first operational tour to 49 Squadron. Fed describes some hairy moments while on operations with enemy fighter near Hamburg; another when they had a seized engine; and a further involving a mid air collision with a Spitfire. He comments on use of OTU crews on operations. He talks about his tour on Mosquito with 692 Squadron and provides some detail about aircraft, marking operations techniques and navigation equipment. Concludes with operation to Berlin needing overload tanks.
Date
2013-03-01
Spatial Coverage
Language
Type
Format
00:31:01 audio recording
Conforms To
Is Part Of
Publisher
Rights
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
SBondS-HillFv10005
Transcription
SB: Right. Are you still there Fred?
FH: Yes. Yeah.
SB: Right. Well, many thanks. There are a few things I wanted to ask you about starting off really with the thousand bomber raid that you were on when you were on the OTU.
FH: Yes. I finished a tour on Hampdens. I then did a PFI course [unclear]. Then down into the [unclear] command system at OTU. The same one that I trained on actually, 14.
SB: Right.
FH: And I’d been there about oh three or four weeks when they did the thousand bomber raids.
SB: Right.
FH: I was on leave when they did the first one but I was on the second one.
SB: Right. How —
FH: That was to Essen.
SB: Right. I mean, how much did you realise at the time what the size of the raid was like? Were you aware of the previous one for example?
FH: Sorry, I’m not sure I can —
SB: Well, when you were being briefed for it because you know operations were relatively unusual on the OTU. Were you aware of the scale of it?
FH: Oh yes. Let’s see. I’m a little bit deaf and I’m going, I’m going to get my ear syringed on Tuesday.
SB: Ok.
FH: I’m telling you because I’m just a little bit on the deaf side.
SB: Oh ok. Well, is that better?
FH: That’s better. Yeah. Yeah.
SB: Right. Well the question really was how much —
FH: Did I know the scale of it?
SB: Yes. Yes.
FH: I did so, yes.
SB: Yes. I mean were you aware of that at the time you were being briefed? That it was going to be a really, you know a big operation.
FH: Oh yes.
SB: Yeah. Yeah. And when you were actually on it I mean did you have a sense of a lot of aircraft around you at the time?
FH: Was I what?
SB: Did you have a sense that there were a lot of aircraft around your, your same part of the sky at the same time?
FH: No. No. At night you very rarely saw other aircraft.
SB: Oh right. Right. Ok.
FH: Yes. Even though there was a thousand.
SB: Yes.
FH: You could be two or three yards and not see the next one if it was a dark night.
Right. Right. Does your logbook, do you have your logbook with you?
FH: Yes.
SB: Does it identify the aircraft that you used that night?
FH: Yeah. It was a Hampden. Hold on. It was an OTU Hampden. In fact, I got up to fifteen thousand feet out of that which was quite high than I got on the squadron machines.
SB: Oh right.
FH: Certainly you couldn’t have gone solo on that. First of all that 1942. Operation Essen. Yes, it was a Hampden. I’ve only got the number 4117. I’ve only got the first three numbers. The letters.
SB: Right. What was, sorry can you just say the numbers again?
FH: 4117.
SB: Oh right. Ok. Well, I’ll be able to track that down. While you’ve got your logbook there.
FH: Yes.
SB: Have you, can you turn and tell me if you flew on the 19th of April ’42.
FH: That should be here. Turn back. ’42.
SB: Yeah.
FH: Hold on. March. April the what?
SB: 19th. One nine.
FH: One nine.
SB: Yeah.
FH: I was doing a course there at Upavon.
SB: Right.
FH: For the QFI thingummy.
SB: Oh, ok. Well, the reason I asked you that —
FH: That was on the 19th actually.
SB: Ok.
FH: It was on flying Oxfords anyway.
SB: Oh right. Right. Ok. The reason I asked you that was a friend of mine who was at the same unit at the same time as you had a trip that day with a Flying Officer Hills so —
FH: Had a what?
SB: Had a trip that day with another pilot with the same name as you.
FH: Oh, I see.
SB: And I just wondered if it was you that was all.
FH: Not guilty. A common name isn’t it.
SB: Well, I suppose so.
FH: Yeah.
SB: Well, can we talk then about the Wimpy generally? I mean, what did you, what did you think of it to fly? What did you like? What did you not like if anything about it?
FH: After flying the Hampden it was like flying a double decker bus.
SB: Really?
FH: The Hampden was far better to handle but militarily there was no comparison. The Wellington was a better machine.
SB: Right.
FH: Militarily speaking.
SB: Right.
FH: I mean there was room in it for upgrading and it had the same functions as a Hampden of course when we took them over. You see we flew the Hampden at OTUs for a month or two in 1942 and then they were withdrawn and they gave us Wellingtons.
SB: Right. Right. Sure.
FH: Quite a difference actually as instructors between the Hampden and the Wellington. You see the Hampden had a crew, four crew positions.
SB: Yes.
FH: And two of them had to be gunners when flying above the [unclear] and one flying below.
SB: Yes.
FH: At that time I could honestly have said on the [unclear] you were classed as a [unclear] you had to have two pilots.
SB: Right.
FH: So what do we get now? Two pilots and two gunners.
SB: Right.
FH: We were slow motion with bomb aiming. [unclear] lined us up and one of my pilots, the second pilot had to do the navigation and the bomb aiming and man the forward gun and pass the [unclear] and any odd jobs that were going. So [laughs] and you didn’t train as a crew.
SB: Right.
FH: Trained as an individual at OTU and then went to a squadron.
SB: Yes. Yes. Right.
FH: I went to Scampton with 49.
SB: Yes.
FH: And my first trip was to, was to Magdeburg.
SB: Yes.
FH: Which was almost as far as Berlin you know. It was straight into the deep end.
SB: Yes. Yes.
FH: I was second pilot, navigator, bomb aimer. In fact, you never touched the controls when you were the second pilot unless the first pilot was disabled.
SB: Right.
FH: Lower the seat, the back of his seat down, pull him out and go in feet first and take his place.
SB: Yes.
FH: I don’t think I ever saw it done very often.
SB: No. Probably not.
FH: So when they, when they switched to Wellingtons we now changed the system to setting up a crew, a full crew and training a crew on Wellingtons and they stayed together and then went on perhaps to a Wellington squadron.
SB: Yes.
FH: Anyway, I did a conversion course to a four-engine job.
SB: Yeah.
FH: Usually Lancasters. Halifaxes.
SB: Yeah.
FH: Stirling is another one I made contact with.
SB: Right. Right.
FH: Not often you do.
SB: Right.
FH: So there was quite a difference in that sense.
SB: Sure. Sure.
FH: That was a sensible thing of course to say but I don’t know why they insisted on two pilots in a Hampden. Mind you when you took over as first pilot halfway through the tour you wouldn’t do it any fuller by having a new navigator would you?
SB: Well, no. I suppose not. No. Oh, so that’s the way it worked. You took over as first pilot halfway through the tour.
FH: Halfway through your tour you became the first pilot.
SB: Oh right. Oh ok. I didn’t know that. Oh, that’s interesting.
FH: Yeah. Well, you should, actually you should have gone back to OTU.
SB: Yes.
FH: Because although as second pilot you could fly the Hampden you had never flown one at night.
SB: Oh. Well, I suppose not. No.
FH: You landed them at night you see.
SB: Right.
FH: Went back to OTU and did some night landings and the odd night cross country. The trouble with flying around we were training second pilots actually.
SB: Right.
FH: Then you went back to the squadron and you were first pilot. But when my turn came they said, ‘Oh, we’re sorry. We can’t spare you for all that time at OTU. You’ll be on a couple of sessions of landings, circuits and bumps and then for your cross country you can say it’s [unclear] to base and that was it. That was when I was a first pilot.
SB: Right. Right. Ok. And did you have any particularly hairy moments with doing your, doing your ops? Were there, you know did you have any encounters with fighters for example or anything like that?
FH: Oh yes. When I was still a second pilot [pause] I can’t remember, I think the target was somewhere near Hamburg and we had to be there by a certain time. Most unusual actually and there was ten tenths cloud all the way over and then it broke.
SB: Right.
FH: We failed to get a fix up to the light blue searchlight.
SB: Right.
FH: [unclear] hunters. Now, at this time the searchlight system was they were beginning to use radar.
SB: Yes.
FH: Before that they’d used sound and the searchlights would be probing around the sky looking for you but with this, with this new system they would go straight on. Bang. And the moment [unclear] four or five obviously sound controlled systems because they were serious and we were coned.
SB: Right.
FH: And a minute or two later bang bang bang we’d got a fighter. I think Steve I was extremely lucky in my war.
SB: Right.
FH: Because either this night fighter was a rotten shot or the armourers hadn’t harmonised the sight with his guns.
SB: Oh ok.
FH: Three quarters of his fire was [intermittent]
SB: Right.
FH: Only a quarter was.
SB: Right.
FH: And of course the first pilot went into a steep dive and turned and we lost him.
SB: Yes.
FH: Threw off the fighter and we found our way back to [unclear] and on the way back we got a diversion order. A diversion to go to Horsham St Faiths I think it was.
SB: Right.
FH: Anyway, five minutes on the way the first pilot saw a flare path so, ‘Oh, there’s a flare path. We’re not going to go to Horsham St Faith and we went and landed on it and it was, I want to say an RAF college.
SB: Cranwell.
FH: Cranwell. It was Cranwell’s satellite.
SB: Oh right.
FH: Do a bit of night flying you see.
SB: Yes.
FH: And so we went there and the next morning we were walking about of course in cover in flying gear and I mean you don’t go in your, in your walking out best.
SB: No.
FH: And the station warrant officer nearly had a fit.
SB: I bet he did.
FH: We were so uncomfortable that we flew our Hampden back. Back to Scampton holes in it or not. And on another, another occasion was my second op as first pilot.
SB: Yeah.
FH: The trouble is after I took off on your first few trips as first pilot you were very careful of course what you were going to [unclear] any incidents and your instruments and what have you and oil pressure was a bit low and oil temperature was a bit high.
SB: Right.
FH: Not enough to divert but some minutes later I said, ‘Pressure is a bit lower and temperature is a bit higher.’ And we kept on going like that and so after I’d done up to about eight thousand feet through cloud it was obvious that the engine and was not going to last.
SB: Right.
FH: So I jettisoned the load over the North Sea.
SB: Yeah.
FH: Turned around to come back. Down through the cloud and then the starboard engine just seized.
SB: Right.
FH: And we soon ran out of oil completely. And of course on the Pegasus the props didn’t feather.
SB: Oh. Ok.
FH: Now, the third engine abruptly began to windmill.
SB: Right. Oh gosh.
FH: [unclear] That was the problem. [I got the lot]
SB: Yes.
FH: And somewhere in Lincolnshire.
SB: Oh dear.
FH: So I had an emergency landing at what’s the name of the place. Hang on. What was the place. [unclear]
SB: Oh right.
FH: [unclear] [pause] Grimsby, of course.
SB: Oh ok. Yes. Yes.
FH: [unclear] right to Scampton.
SB: Yes, indeed. Yes. Yes.
FH: That was, that was in the tour.
SB: Right.
FH: When I went back as an instructor back to Cottesmore —
SB: Yeah.
FH: We were still flying Hampdens and I took a crew for familiarisation as it was called.
SB: Yes.
FH: The second pilot was just stood behind the first pilot because of course there wasn’t room side by side.
SB: Right.
FH: And right enough the speed was for the turning [unclear] stall and was like [unclear] and so on.
SB: Yes.
FH: And two, two wop a.gs now when they came to you we agreed those [unclear]
SB: Right.
FH: Because they had very little airtime for training. You didn’t do it. A few hours in a box and shake it a bit and he wouldn’t know the difference would he?
SB: Well, no.
FH: Anyway, we came across a Wellington and a Spitfire doing the fighter affiliation.
SB: Yes.
FH: And the Spitfire turned at me head on and in such a situation as you will no doubt know you both should turn to starboard.
SB: Yes. Yes.
FH: Like two ships.
SB: Yeah.
FH: And I banked it into starboard and he turned to port.
SB: Oh no.
FH: And then at the last moment tried to go underneath.
SB: Right.
FH: [unclear] hit my nose and his starboard engine hit mine, his starboard wing rather hit my starboard wing on the engine, chopped his starboard wing off and made a hell of a mess of my starboard engine that side.
SB: Oh gosh.
FH: And he was, at the inquest it was said that he was thirty feet under when they dug him out.
SB: Good grief.
FH: And I was, well the question was what to do next and what I was worried about was had he damaged the main spar on the starboard wing.
SB: Yes.
FH: But if he has [unclear] that’s the end of us.
SB: Right.
FH: I put it down and [unclear] up to a ploughed field.
SB: Goodness me.
FH: I’d been let down by only a bump on the head.
SB: Gosh.
FH: So I told you I was lucky.
SB: You certainly were. Do you have, do you have the date?
FH: I had a lucky war.
SB: Do you have the date for that incident at all?
FH: Have I what?
SB: The date when that happened.
FH: The dump.
SB: The date. What date was that? That encounter with the Spitfire do you have in your log what date it was?
FH: I’m sorry would you spell that word? I can’t hear what you’re saying.
SB: Date. Delta [laughs] delta able table echo. Date. What date was it? When?
FH: Spell it slowly. I’ve got it in my logbook.
SB: Delta alpha tango echo. Date.
FH: Date?
SB: Date. Yes. Never mind. Never mind. We’ll move on.
FH: [unclear] is what you paint on a Wellington fuselage.
SB: No. No. No. You know day, week, month, year. What date? No. Don’t worry. Don’t worry. We’ll move on.
FH: I’m sorry. It’s my hearing.
SB: I’m trying to get the date when that happened.
FH: I’m sorry I can’t.
SB: Well, in your log.
FH: Yeah. In my log.
SB: Was it January? February? March? What date?
FH: Oh the date.
SB: Yes.
FH: Friday the 2nd 1942.
SB: Right. Ok. Ok.
FH: My aircraft 2067.
SB: Oh right.
FH: I got the tour and the pilot and the engineers either side of me [unclear]
SB: Oh ok. Ok.
FH: Familiarisation with a Spitfire. Flying into a potato field minus one engine.
SB: And everybody was ok apart from a minor bump were they?
FH: Yes. A minor bump. Yes.
SB: Right. Just —
FH: Soon after that we took over Wellingtons. Yes.
SB: Right. Just sticking with the OTU at the moment —
FH: Yes.
SB: When the OTU aircraft were used on an op was the crew all OTU staff or did you have trainees in the crew as well?
FH: Well, it only happened on those two occasions.
SB: Right.
FH: When I was at OTU.
SB: Yes.
FH: And I had a staff wireless op ag.
SB: Yes.
FH: And a trainee in final stages of training. Second pilot, navigator, bomb aimer and bottom gunner.
SB: Oh right.
FH: So it was two staff and two trainees.
SB: Oh, ok. Ok. That’s interesting.
FH: I think that was, that was general for the Hampden because there were certain areas of Hampdens on the first one thousand raids. They didn’t do any more one thousand raids. Certainly not on the Wellington.
SB: Right. Ok.
FH: We did a very interesting in [a Wimpy] was that we kept on doing searches.
SB: Oh yes.
FH: Didn’t find anything. I did a search. That was it. January the 20th 1943.
SB: Yeah.
FH: Did a search. Found three pieces of flotsam and one mine. That was an oval mine. A circular one with all the spikes sticking out of it.
SB: Oh, yes. Yes. Oh, right [laughs] Can I just have a quick chat with you about the Mosquito?
FH: Yes, surely.
SB: You went on to 692. That’s right isn’t it?
FH: Which is the first squadron to have the Mark 16 Mosquito which carried a four thousand pounder.
SB: Yes. I was going to ask you about that.
FH: Yes, stuck in the bomb bay and it looked slightly pregnant.
SB: Right. Did that affect the handling at all?
FH: No. [unclear] the best with the latest Rolls Royce engines in it and that. I’m just looking at the back of my logbook here. Aircraft. Mosquito. Mark 1 420 1916.
SB: Right.
FH: And I think it was the 76 77 series engine.
SB: Right.
FH: It had a two, a two stage super charger.
SB: Yes.
FH: The circumstance wouldn’t come in below seventeen thousand feet.
SB: Oh Right. Ok.
FH: And it had a switch so then you could turn tables. You didn’t want it to go in. So if you just let it go below the mandatory it came over with such a hell of a thump and a bang that you [unclear] you see.
SB: Oh right.
FH: So you turned it off and then it went to eighteen thousand feet. You said, ‘Johnny, I’m switching it all off.’ You see and then [unclear] and then it just carried on through [unclear] you know.
SB: Right. Right.
FH: Coming back one night I had a brand-new machine and I didn’t tell Johnny the navigator because it wasn’t fair. I turned it up. I got thirty thousand and was still climbing.
SB: Goodness me. Gosh.
FH: To actually to get on to Mosquitoes it was rather an elite group. First of all you had to had to have a thousand hours in your logbook.
SB: Right.
FH: And we had to be recommended by your CO.
SB: Yes.
FH: And then you had to do the decompression test.
SB: Oh, right. Ok.
FH: Decompression chamber and the lot of the crew [unclear] you know.
SB: Oh yes.
FH: I took it around to various stations. I’d put you in there. I put the pressure around to thirty seven thousand feet and if you got the bends you weren’t accepted.
SB: Oh really? I didn’t know that. Goodness.
FH: You couldn’t have any, any fillings in your teeth.
SB: Really?
FH: Because [unclear] you see and the threshold was about a seventh of normal.
SB: Yes.
FH: And you had severe pain in your fillings.
SB: Goodness gracious.
FH: You could have dentures but no, no fillings.
SB: Oh right. Right.
FH: But it was a nice machine to fly.
SB: Well yes I’ve spoken to quite a few chaps who have flown them. They all say that.
FH: Oh, of course.
SB: Did, I did —
FH: Much [unclear] everywhere.
SB: Right.
FH: Johnno, my [unclear] he said the [unclear] by then you didn’t have your own target as you did in the Hampden days and the early Wellington days.
SB: Right.
FH: You’d find the target with sound on the [unclear]
SB: Yes.
FH: And you’d put down markers on it.
SB: Yes.
FH: So a two hundred and fifty pound Roman candle sort of thing.
SB: Yes, I know. Yeah.
FH: And on the, in the Mosquito we had VHF radio rather than the TR9 on the Hampden.
SB: Right.
FH: And the Wellington. You know the TR9.
SB: Yes, I do. Yes.
FH: Yeah. I think it was TR1152.
SB: Yes.
FH: If I remember on the Mosquitoes.
SB: Yes.
FH: [unclear] anything up to a hundred and fifty of us. Anything from , somebody was in charge one particular mission in mind and the [unclear]
SB: Yes. Sure.
FH: With the TR1152 we could only charge from thirty or forty miles away.
SB: Right.
FH: I could get [unclear] to the Dutch coast you see.
SB: Oh right. Right.
FH: So, then on the way, [unclear] the navigation had tremendously improved because we had far better help while we were still up in the Mosquito. That was the old Scampton days.
SB: Yes.
FH: And the navigator had to find the wind because everything depended on the wind.
SB: Right. Sure.
FH: We had to check the wind every quarter of an hour on Gee because we’d got Gee by then.
SB: Yes.
FH: Mind you we used to get [unclear]
SB: Yes. Oh I know. Yes.
FH: The Americans were still, what was that called? Oh dear. The Americans had Gee. Do you know what Gee was?
SB: I do, yes. Yes.
FH: And the Americans had a similar system but a different frequency.
SB: Yes.
FH: And it was receivable much farther out.
SB: Right.
FH: Than Gee.
SB: Yes. Yes.
FH: So anyway the navigators had to find a wind every quarter of an hour.
SB: Yes.
FH: As a group we more or less stayed you know within shouting distance of each other.
SB: Right. And then did —
FH: If the wind wasn’t as expected I mean we’d either arrive five minutes early and then the boss would say HR minus five.
SB: Right.
FH: In other words bring the bombing time forward five minutes.
SB: Right.
FH: I’ll follow [unclear] you see.
SB: Right.
FH: And then as you got to about eight minus three Johnny would get down in the, in the nose to set up the bomb sight.
SB: Yes.
FH: And when they’d done that I could only see the legs.
SB: Right.
FH: I couldn’t see [unclear] or anything.
SB: Right.
FH: And getting [unclear] I would probably see the TIs going down and I’d say, ‘TIs down. Bomb doors open.’
SB: Yes.
FH: And open the bomb doors and he would repeat, ‘Bomb doors open.’
SB: Right.
FH: And they’d start giving, ‘I can see the TIs.’ I’d start the new directions to take me [unclear] .
SB: Right. Right.
FH: But when I said, ‘Bomb doors open,’ I got no response. ‘Johnny, what’s up? Johnny.’ No response. So I looked to see if he’d pulled his, his whats it out. Oh dear, what’s the name of the thing? Intercom.
SB: Right. Yes.
FH: Because that went into a socket.
SB: Right.
FH: If he’d pulled that out of course he wouldn’t hear me.
SB: No.
FH: No. that wasn’t pulled out. Was it oxygen. No, that was alright. And when I happened to look at his oxygen gauge. He was reading zero. What had happened was obviously he’d brushed against the reel that turned the oxygen up and down. He’d obviously brushed away with his arm and turned the oxygen off.
SB: Oh dear.
FH: And there he was lying there unconscious. So I turned the oxygen on to full.
SB: Yeah.
FH: Of course by then it was too late to do that so I had to turn around, do a big orbit and by then he was ok.
SB: Oh goodness.
FH: But that was about the only thing. Oh sorry. Now, on another occasion to reach Berlin we needed some overload tanks.
SB: Yes.
FH: There were drop tanks under the wings.
SB: Yes.
FH: Something like eighty thousand each.
SB: Right.
FH: And you didn’t have a gauge. We pumped from the drop tank into the main tank.
SB: Yes.
FH: So the main tank was full and so the drop tank was empty.
SB: Right. Sure.
FH: So you know the tanks were full from the first half hour or so.
SB: Yeah.
FH: But my friend [unclear] a quarter of an hour because as occasionally happened the drop tanks weren’t siphoning properly.
SB: Oh right.
FH: Then we’d got to make a decision. Well at first [unclear] as usual. Berlin was our main target actually.
SB: Yes.
FH: On our way back, on our way back to base and landed at a place on the, oh the east coast. What was it called?
SB: Woodbridge?
FH: The station set up, an RAF station, an airfield set up on the east coast to deal with people who were damaged.
SB: Yes. You’re talking about Woodbridge.
FH: Woodbridge. That’s the one. I couldn’t remember its name.
SB: Yes.
FH: So I landed at Woodbridge. Sure enough we were asked to go back.
SB: Right.
FH: You see things happened on that note.
SB: Oh right. Right.
FH: In the Mosquito.
SB: Well you —
FH: [unclear] monitor. Oh sorry, another one. You know this second stage in the super charger?
SB: Yes.
FH: Well, that was governed obviously by a little capsule.
SB: Yes.
FH: And as the capsule burst.
SB: Yeah.
FH: Then the engine [unclear] the second stage supercharger.
SB: Right.
FH: Instead of having sudden boost without thrust or anything until the engine blew up.
SB: Right. Yes.
FH: You had to be sort of aware that that could happen and it did happen on one take-off.
SB: Oh right. Yeah.
FH: I was taking off with one throttle fully open and the other half open.
SB: Oh gosh.
FH: That was alright if you knew it was coming.
SB: Yes.
FH: You could almost be ready for it.
SB: Excellent. Yeah. Right. I’ve got, I’m going to have to go Fred unfortunately.
FH: Ok then.
SB: Well, you’ve given me a lot to think about.
FH: Give me a buzz if you want to know more.
SB: I certainly shall. Thank you very much indeed for your time. I’ll, I’ll give you a call in a few days probably when I’ve had a chance to absorb it and think of what else I need to talk to you about but I I very much appreciate it.
FH: Ok then, Steve.
SB: Thanks a lot.
FH: All the best.
SB: Bye bye for now.
FH: Yes. Yeah.
SB: Right. Well, many thanks. There are a few things I wanted to ask you about starting off really with the thousand bomber raid that you were on when you were on the OTU.
FH: Yes. I finished a tour on Hampdens. I then did a PFI course [unclear]. Then down into the [unclear] command system at OTU. The same one that I trained on actually, 14.
SB: Right.
FH: And I’d been there about oh three or four weeks when they did the thousand bomber raids.
SB: Right.
FH: I was on leave when they did the first one but I was on the second one.
SB: Right. How —
FH: That was to Essen.
SB: Right. I mean, how much did you realise at the time what the size of the raid was like? Were you aware of the previous one for example?
FH: Sorry, I’m not sure I can —
SB: Well, when you were being briefed for it because you know operations were relatively unusual on the OTU. Were you aware of the scale of it?
FH: Oh yes. Let’s see. I’m a little bit deaf and I’m going, I’m going to get my ear syringed on Tuesday.
SB: Ok.
FH: I’m telling you because I’m just a little bit on the deaf side.
SB: Oh ok. Well, is that better?
FH: That’s better. Yeah. Yeah.
SB: Right. Well the question really was how much —
FH: Did I know the scale of it?
SB: Yes. Yes.
FH: I did so, yes.
SB: Yes. I mean were you aware of that at the time you were being briefed? That it was going to be a really, you know a big operation.
FH: Oh yes.
SB: Yeah. Yeah. And when you were actually on it I mean did you have a sense of a lot of aircraft around you at the time?
FH: Was I what?
SB: Did you have a sense that there were a lot of aircraft around your, your same part of the sky at the same time?
FH: No. No. At night you very rarely saw other aircraft.
SB: Oh right. Right. Ok.
FH: Yes. Even though there was a thousand.
SB: Yes.
FH: You could be two or three yards and not see the next one if it was a dark night.
Right. Right. Does your logbook, do you have your logbook with you?
FH: Yes.
SB: Does it identify the aircraft that you used that night?
FH: Yeah. It was a Hampden. Hold on. It was an OTU Hampden. In fact, I got up to fifteen thousand feet out of that which was quite high than I got on the squadron machines.
SB: Oh right.
FH: Certainly you couldn’t have gone solo on that. First of all that 1942. Operation Essen. Yes, it was a Hampden. I’ve only got the number 4117. I’ve only got the first three numbers. The letters.
SB: Right. What was, sorry can you just say the numbers again?
FH: 4117.
SB: Oh right. Ok. Well, I’ll be able to track that down. While you’ve got your logbook there.
FH: Yes.
SB: Have you, can you turn and tell me if you flew on the 19th of April ’42.
FH: That should be here. Turn back. ’42.
SB: Yeah.
FH: Hold on. March. April the what?
SB: 19th. One nine.
FH: One nine.
SB: Yeah.
FH: I was doing a course there at Upavon.
SB: Right.
FH: For the QFI thingummy.
SB: Oh, ok. Well, the reason I asked you that —
FH: That was on the 19th actually.
SB: Ok.
FH: It was on flying Oxfords anyway.
SB: Oh right. Right. Ok. The reason I asked you that was a friend of mine who was at the same unit at the same time as you had a trip that day with a Flying Officer Hills so —
FH: Had a what?
SB: Had a trip that day with another pilot with the same name as you.
FH: Oh, I see.
SB: And I just wondered if it was you that was all.
FH: Not guilty. A common name isn’t it.
SB: Well, I suppose so.
FH: Yeah.
SB: Well, can we talk then about the Wimpy generally? I mean, what did you, what did you think of it to fly? What did you like? What did you not like if anything about it?
FH: After flying the Hampden it was like flying a double decker bus.
SB: Really?
FH: The Hampden was far better to handle but militarily there was no comparison. The Wellington was a better machine.
SB: Right.
FH: Militarily speaking.
SB: Right.
FH: I mean there was room in it for upgrading and it had the same functions as a Hampden of course when we took them over. You see we flew the Hampden at OTUs for a month or two in 1942 and then they were withdrawn and they gave us Wellingtons.
SB: Right. Right. Sure.
FH: Quite a difference actually as instructors between the Hampden and the Wellington. You see the Hampden had a crew, four crew positions.
SB: Yes.
FH: And two of them had to be gunners when flying above the [unclear] and one flying below.
SB: Yes.
FH: At that time I could honestly have said on the [unclear] you were classed as a [unclear] you had to have two pilots.
SB: Right.
FH: So what do we get now? Two pilots and two gunners.
SB: Right.
FH: We were slow motion with bomb aiming. [unclear] lined us up and one of my pilots, the second pilot had to do the navigation and the bomb aiming and man the forward gun and pass the [unclear] and any odd jobs that were going. So [laughs] and you didn’t train as a crew.
SB: Right.
FH: Trained as an individual at OTU and then went to a squadron.
SB: Yes. Yes. Right.
FH: I went to Scampton with 49.
SB: Yes.
FH: And my first trip was to, was to Magdeburg.
SB: Yes.
FH: Which was almost as far as Berlin you know. It was straight into the deep end.
SB: Yes. Yes.
FH: I was second pilot, navigator, bomb aimer. In fact, you never touched the controls when you were the second pilot unless the first pilot was disabled.
SB: Right.
FH: Lower the seat, the back of his seat down, pull him out and go in feet first and take his place.
SB: Yes.
FH: I don’t think I ever saw it done very often.
SB: No. Probably not.
FH: So when they, when they switched to Wellingtons we now changed the system to setting up a crew, a full crew and training a crew on Wellingtons and they stayed together and then went on perhaps to a Wellington squadron.
SB: Yes.
FH: Anyway, I did a conversion course to a four-engine job.
SB: Yeah.
FH: Usually Lancasters. Halifaxes.
SB: Yeah.
FH: Stirling is another one I made contact with.
SB: Right. Right.
FH: Not often you do.
SB: Right.
FH: So there was quite a difference in that sense.
SB: Sure. Sure.
FH: That was a sensible thing of course to say but I don’t know why they insisted on two pilots in a Hampden. Mind you when you took over as first pilot halfway through the tour you wouldn’t do it any fuller by having a new navigator would you?
SB: Well, no. I suppose not. No. Oh, so that’s the way it worked. You took over as first pilot halfway through the tour.
FH: Halfway through your tour you became the first pilot.
SB: Oh right. Oh ok. I didn’t know that. Oh, that’s interesting.
FH: Yeah. Well, you should, actually you should have gone back to OTU.
SB: Yes.
FH: Because although as second pilot you could fly the Hampden you had never flown one at night.
SB: Oh. Well, I suppose not. No.
FH: You landed them at night you see.
SB: Right.
FH: Went back to OTU and did some night landings and the odd night cross country. The trouble with flying around we were training second pilots actually.
SB: Right.
FH: Then you went back to the squadron and you were first pilot. But when my turn came they said, ‘Oh, we’re sorry. We can’t spare you for all that time at OTU. You’ll be on a couple of sessions of landings, circuits and bumps and then for your cross country you can say it’s [unclear] to base and that was it. That was when I was a first pilot.
SB: Right. Right. Ok. And did you have any particularly hairy moments with doing your, doing your ops? Were there, you know did you have any encounters with fighters for example or anything like that?
FH: Oh yes. When I was still a second pilot [pause] I can’t remember, I think the target was somewhere near Hamburg and we had to be there by a certain time. Most unusual actually and there was ten tenths cloud all the way over and then it broke.
SB: Right.
FH: We failed to get a fix up to the light blue searchlight.
SB: Right.
FH: [unclear] hunters. Now, at this time the searchlight system was they were beginning to use radar.
SB: Yes.
FH: Before that they’d used sound and the searchlights would be probing around the sky looking for you but with this, with this new system they would go straight on. Bang. And the moment [unclear] four or five obviously sound controlled systems because they were serious and we were coned.
SB: Right.
FH: And a minute or two later bang bang bang we’d got a fighter. I think Steve I was extremely lucky in my war.
SB: Right.
FH: Because either this night fighter was a rotten shot or the armourers hadn’t harmonised the sight with his guns.
SB: Oh ok.
FH: Three quarters of his fire was [intermittent]
SB: Right.
FH: Only a quarter was.
SB: Right.
FH: And of course the first pilot went into a steep dive and turned and we lost him.
SB: Yes.
FH: Threw off the fighter and we found our way back to [unclear] and on the way back we got a diversion order. A diversion to go to Horsham St Faiths I think it was.
SB: Right.
FH: Anyway, five minutes on the way the first pilot saw a flare path so, ‘Oh, there’s a flare path. We’re not going to go to Horsham St Faith and we went and landed on it and it was, I want to say an RAF college.
SB: Cranwell.
FH: Cranwell. It was Cranwell’s satellite.
SB: Oh right.
FH: Do a bit of night flying you see.
SB: Yes.
FH: And so we went there and the next morning we were walking about of course in cover in flying gear and I mean you don’t go in your, in your walking out best.
SB: No.
FH: And the station warrant officer nearly had a fit.
SB: I bet he did.
FH: We were so uncomfortable that we flew our Hampden back. Back to Scampton holes in it or not. And on another, another occasion was my second op as first pilot.
SB: Yeah.
FH: The trouble is after I took off on your first few trips as first pilot you were very careful of course what you were going to [unclear] any incidents and your instruments and what have you and oil pressure was a bit low and oil temperature was a bit high.
SB: Right.
FH: Not enough to divert but some minutes later I said, ‘Pressure is a bit lower and temperature is a bit higher.’ And we kept on going like that and so after I’d done up to about eight thousand feet through cloud it was obvious that the engine and was not going to last.
SB: Right.
FH: So I jettisoned the load over the North Sea.
SB: Yeah.
FH: Turned around to come back. Down through the cloud and then the starboard engine just seized.
SB: Right.
FH: And we soon ran out of oil completely. And of course on the Pegasus the props didn’t feather.
SB: Oh. Ok.
FH: Now, the third engine abruptly began to windmill.
SB: Right. Oh gosh.
FH: [unclear] That was the problem. [I got the lot]
SB: Yes.
FH: And somewhere in Lincolnshire.
SB: Oh dear.
FH: So I had an emergency landing at what’s the name of the place. Hang on. What was the place. [unclear]
SB: Oh right.
FH: [unclear] [pause] Grimsby, of course.
SB: Oh ok. Yes. Yes.
FH: [unclear] right to Scampton.
SB: Yes, indeed. Yes. Yes.
FH: That was, that was in the tour.
SB: Right.
FH: When I went back as an instructor back to Cottesmore —
SB: Yeah.
FH: We were still flying Hampdens and I took a crew for familiarisation as it was called.
SB: Yes.
FH: The second pilot was just stood behind the first pilot because of course there wasn’t room side by side.
SB: Right.
FH: And right enough the speed was for the turning [unclear] stall and was like [unclear] and so on.
SB: Yes.
FH: And two, two wop a.gs now when they came to you we agreed those [unclear]
SB: Right.
FH: Because they had very little airtime for training. You didn’t do it. A few hours in a box and shake it a bit and he wouldn’t know the difference would he?
SB: Well, no.
FH: Anyway, we came across a Wellington and a Spitfire doing the fighter affiliation.
SB: Yes.
FH: And the Spitfire turned at me head on and in such a situation as you will no doubt know you both should turn to starboard.
SB: Yes. Yes.
FH: Like two ships.
SB: Yeah.
FH: And I banked it into starboard and he turned to port.
SB: Oh no.
FH: And then at the last moment tried to go underneath.
SB: Right.
FH: [unclear] hit my nose and his starboard engine hit mine, his starboard wing rather hit my starboard wing on the engine, chopped his starboard wing off and made a hell of a mess of my starboard engine that side.
SB: Oh gosh.
FH: And he was, at the inquest it was said that he was thirty feet under when they dug him out.
SB: Good grief.
FH: And I was, well the question was what to do next and what I was worried about was had he damaged the main spar on the starboard wing.
SB: Yes.
FH: But if he has [unclear] that’s the end of us.
SB: Right.
FH: I put it down and [unclear] up to a ploughed field.
SB: Goodness me.
FH: I’d been let down by only a bump on the head.
SB: Gosh.
FH: So I told you I was lucky.
SB: You certainly were. Do you have, do you have the date?
FH: I had a lucky war.
SB: Do you have the date for that incident at all?
FH: Have I what?
SB: The date when that happened.
FH: The dump.
SB: The date. What date was that? That encounter with the Spitfire do you have in your log what date it was?
FH: I’m sorry would you spell that word? I can’t hear what you’re saying.
SB: Date. Delta [laughs] delta able table echo. Date. What date was it? When?
FH: Spell it slowly. I’ve got it in my logbook.
SB: Delta alpha tango echo. Date.
FH: Date?
SB: Date. Yes. Never mind. Never mind. We’ll move on.
FH: [unclear] is what you paint on a Wellington fuselage.
SB: No. No. No. You know day, week, month, year. What date? No. Don’t worry. Don’t worry. We’ll move on.
FH: I’m sorry. It’s my hearing.
SB: I’m trying to get the date when that happened.
FH: I’m sorry I can’t.
SB: Well, in your log.
FH: Yeah. In my log.
SB: Was it January? February? March? What date?
FH: Oh the date.
SB: Yes.
FH: Friday the 2nd 1942.
SB: Right. Ok. Ok.
FH: My aircraft 2067.
SB: Oh right.
FH: I got the tour and the pilot and the engineers either side of me [unclear]
SB: Oh ok. Ok.
FH: Familiarisation with a Spitfire. Flying into a potato field minus one engine.
SB: And everybody was ok apart from a minor bump were they?
FH: Yes. A minor bump. Yes.
SB: Right. Just —
FH: Soon after that we took over Wellingtons. Yes.
SB: Right. Just sticking with the OTU at the moment —
FH: Yes.
SB: When the OTU aircraft were used on an op was the crew all OTU staff or did you have trainees in the crew as well?
FH: Well, it only happened on those two occasions.
SB: Right.
FH: When I was at OTU.
SB: Yes.
FH: And I had a staff wireless op ag.
SB: Yes.
FH: And a trainee in final stages of training. Second pilot, navigator, bomb aimer and bottom gunner.
SB: Oh right.
FH: So it was two staff and two trainees.
SB: Oh, ok. Ok. That’s interesting.
FH: I think that was, that was general for the Hampden because there were certain areas of Hampdens on the first one thousand raids. They didn’t do any more one thousand raids. Certainly not on the Wellington.
SB: Right. Ok.
FH: We did a very interesting in [a Wimpy] was that we kept on doing searches.
SB: Oh yes.
FH: Didn’t find anything. I did a search. That was it. January the 20th 1943.
SB: Yeah.
FH: Did a search. Found three pieces of flotsam and one mine. That was an oval mine. A circular one with all the spikes sticking out of it.
SB: Oh, yes. Yes. Oh, right [laughs] Can I just have a quick chat with you about the Mosquito?
FH: Yes, surely.
SB: You went on to 692. That’s right isn’t it?
FH: Which is the first squadron to have the Mark 16 Mosquito which carried a four thousand pounder.
SB: Yes. I was going to ask you about that.
FH: Yes, stuck in the bomb bay and it looked slightly pregnant.
SB: Right. Did that affect the handling at all?
FH: No. [unclear] the best with the latest Rolls Royce engines in it and that. I’m just looking at the back of my logbook here. Aircraft. Mosquito. Mark 1 420 1916.
SB: Right.
FH: And I think it was the 76 77 series engine.
SB: Right.
FH: It had a two, a two stage super charger.
SB: Yes.
FH: The circumstance wouldn’t come in below seventeen thousand feet.
SB: Oh Right. Ok.
FH: And it had a switch so then you could turn tables. You didn’t want it to go in. So if you just let it go below the mandatory it came over with such a hell of a thump and a bang that you [unclear] you see.
SB: Oh right.
FH: So you turned it off and then it went to eighteen thousand feet. You said, ‘Johnny, I’m switching it all off.’ You see and then [unclear] and then it just carried on through [unclear] you know.
SB: Right. Right.
FH: Coming back one night I had a brand-new machine and I didn’t tell Johnny the navigator because it wasn’t fair. I turned it up. I got thirty thousand and was still climbing.
SB: Goodness me. Gosh.
FH: To actually to get on to Mosquitoes it was rather an elite group. First of all you had to had to have a thousand hours in your logbook.
SB: Right.
FH: And we had to be recommended by your CO.
SB: Yes.
FH: And then you had to do the decompression test.
SB: Oh, right. Ok.
FH: Decompression chamber and the lot of the crew [unclear] you know.
SB: Oh yes.
FH: I took it around to various stations. I’d put you in there. I put the pressure around to thirty seven thousand feet and if you got the bends you weren’t accepted.
SB: Oh really? I didn’t know that. Goodness.
FH: You couldn’t have any, any fillings in your teeth.
SB: Really?
FH: Because [unclear] you see and the threshold was about a seventh of normal.
SB: Yes.
FH: And you had severe pain in your fillings.
SB: Goodness gracious.
FH: You could have dentures but no, no fillings.
SB: Oh right. Right.
FH: But it was a nice machine to fly.
SB: Well yes I’ve spoken to quite a few chaps who have flown them. They all say that.
FH: Oh, of course.
SB: Did, I did —
FH: Much [unclear] everywhere.
SB: Right.
FH: Johnno, my [unclear] he said the [unclear] by then you didn’t have your own target as you did in the Hampden days and the early Wellington days.
SB: Right.
FH: You’d find the target with sound on the [unclear]
SB: Yes.
FH: And you’d put down markers on it.
SB: Yes.
FH: So a two hundred and fifty pound Roman candle sort of thing.
SB: Yes, I know. Yeah.
FH: And on the, in the Mosquito we had VHF radio rather than the TR9 on the Hampden.
SB: Right.
FH: And the Wellington. You know the TR9.
SB: Yes, I do. Yes.
FH: Yeah. I think it was TR1152.
SB: Yes.
FH: If I remember on the Mosquitoes.
SB: Yes.
FH: [unclear] anything up to a hundred and fifty of us. Anything from , somebody was in charge one particular mission in mind and the [unclear]
SB: Yes. Sure.
FH: With the TR1152 we could only charge from thirty or forty miles away.
SB: Right.
FH: I could get [unclear] to the Dutch coast you see.
SB: Oh right. Right.
FH: So, then on the way, [unclear] the navigation had tremendously improved because we had far better help while we were still up in the Mosquito. That was the old Scampton days.
SB: Yes.
FH: And the navigator had to find the wind because everything depended on the wind.
SB: Right. Sure.
FH: We had to check the wind every quarter of an hour on Gee because we’d got Gee by then.
SB: Yes.
FH: Mind you we used to get [unclear]
SB: Yes. Oh I know. Yes.
FH: The Americans were still, what was that called? Oh dear. The Americans had Gee. Do you know what Gee was?
SB: I do, yes. Yes.
FH: And the Americans had a similar system but a different frequency.
SB: Yes.
FH: And it was receivable much farther out.
SB: Right.
FH: Than Gee.
SB: Yes. Yes.
FH: So anyway the navigators had to find a wind every quarter of an hour.
SB: Yes.
FH: As a group we more or less stayed you know within shouting distance of each other.
SB: Right. And then did —
FH: If the wind wasn’t as expected I mean we’d either arrive five minutes early and then the boss would say HR minus five.
SB: Right.
FH: In other words bring the bombing time forward five minutes.
SB: Right.
FH: I’ll follow [unclear] you see.
SB: Right.
FH: And then as you got to about eight minus three Johnny would get down in the, in the nose to set up the bomb sight.
SB: Yes.
FH: And when they’d done that I could only see the legs.
SB: Right.
FH: I couldn’t see [unclear] or anything.
SB: Right.
FH: And getting [unclear] I would probably see the TIs going down and I’d say, ‘TIs down. Bomb doors open.’
SB: Yes.
FH: And open the bomb doors and he would repeat, ‘Bomb doors open.’
SB: Right.
FH: And they’d start giving, ‘I can see the TIs.’ I’d start the new directions to take me [unclear] .
SB: Right. Right.
FH: But when I said, ‘Bomb doors open,’ I got no response. ‘Johnny, what’s up? Johnny.’ No response. So I looked to see if he’d pulled his, his whats it out. Oh dear, what’s the name of the thing? Intercom.
SB: Right. Yes.
FH: Because that went into a socket.
SB: Right.
FH: If he’d pulled that out of course he wouldn’t hear me.
SB: No.
FH: No. that wasn’t pulled out. Was it oxygen. No, that was alright. And when I happened to look at his oxygen gauge. He was reading zero. What had happened was obviously he’d brushed against the reel that turned the oxygen up and down. He’d obviously brushed away with his arm and turned the oxygen off.
SB: Oh dear.
FH: And there he was lying there unconscious. So I turned the oxygen on to full.
SB: Yeah.
FH: Of course by then it was too late to do that so I had to turn around, do a big orbit and by then he was ok.
SB: Oh goodness.
FH: But that was about the only thing. Oh sorry. Now, on another occasion to reach Berlin we needed some overload tanks.
SB: Yes.
FH: There were drop tanks under the wings.
SB: Yes.
FH: Something like eighty thousand each.
SB: Right.
FH: And you didn’t have a gauge. We pumped from the drop tank into the main tank.
SB: Yes.
FH: So the main tank was full and so the drop tank was empty.
SB: Right. Sure.
FH: So you know the tanks were full from the first half hour or so.
SB: Yeah.
FH: But my friend [unclear] a quarter of an hour because as occasionally happened the drop tanks weren’t siphoning properly.
SB: Oh right.
FH: Then we’d got to make a decision. Well at first [unclear] as usual. Berlin was our main target actually.
SB: Yes.
FH: On our way back, on our way back to base and landed at a place on the, oh the east coast. What was it called?
SB: Woodbridge?
FH: The station set up, an RAF station, an airfield set up on the east coast to deal with people who were damaged.
SB: Yes. You’re talking about Woodbridge.
FH: Woodbridge. That’s the one. I couldn’t remember its name.
SB: Yes.
FH: So I landed at Woodbridge. Sure enough we were asked to go back.
SB: Right.
FH: You see things happened on that note.
SB: Oh right. Right.
FH: In the Mosquito.
SB: Well you —
FH: [unclear] monitor. Oh sorry, another one. You know this second stage in the super charger?
SB: Yes.
FH: Well, that was governed obviously by a little capsule.
SB: Yes.
FH: And as the capsule burst.
SB: Yeah.
FH: Then the engine [unclear] the second stage supercharger.
SB: Right.
FH: Instead of having sudden boost without thrust or anything until the engine blew up.
SB: Right. Yes.
FH: You had to be sort of aware that that could happen and it did happen on one take-off.
SB: Oh right. Yeah.
FH: I was taking off with one throttle fully open and the other half open.
SB: Oh gosh.
FH: That was alright if you knew it was coming.
SB: Yes.
FH: You could almost be ready for it.
SB: Excellent. Yeah. Right. I’ve got, I’m going to have to go Fred unfortunately.
FH: Ok then.
SB: Well, you’ve given me a lot to think about.
FH: Give me a buzz if you want to know more.
SB: I certainly shall. Thank you very much indeed for your time. I’ll, I’ll give you a call in a few days probably when I’ve had a chance to absorb it and think of what else I need to talk to you about but I I very much appreciate it.
FH: Ok then, Steve.
SB: Thanks a lot.
FH: All the best.
SB: Bye bye for now.
Collection
Citation
S Bond and F Hill, “Interview with Fred Hill,” IBCC Digital Archive, accessed June 16, 2025, https://ibccdigitalarchive.omeka.net/collections/document/49710.