1 25 380 https://ibccdigitalarchive.omeka.net/files/original/3261/59606/PWhiteGA2105.jpg 60a20b9b1ddf9f0921dd2e95fc5a69be https://ibccdigitalarchive.omeka.net/files/original/3261/59606/PWhiteGA2106.jpg f32903e2fee2fb80c0bf090e5965e0b8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource White, George Arthur Description An account of the resource Three items. The collection concerns Sergeant George Arthur White (1911 - 1942, 1063335 Royal Air Force) and contains photographs. He flew operations as a wireless operator / air gunner with 405 Squadron and was killed 30 June 1942. <br /><br />The collection was loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Molly Marshall and catalogued by John England. <br /><br />Additional information on George Arthur White is available via the <a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/230119/">IBCC Losses Database.</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-08-11 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context White, GA Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource George Arthur White and three civilians Description An account of the resource G A White in civilian clothes with three civilians outside a brick building. One is holding a rabbit. On reverse, handwritten date 23.7,39 and also printed numbers 2 and 0. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1939-07-23 Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1939-07-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Civilian Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Photograph Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource One b/w photograph Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PWhiteGA2105, PWhiteGA2106 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Great Britain Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. animal childhood in wartime https://ibccdigitalarchive.omeka.net/files/original/3004/57854/AWilliamsR200505.mp3 8dece6277bf1df7b86f5cb09dd948d5a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Williams, James Raphael Jimmy Williams Description An account of the resource 40 items. The collection concerns James Raphael Williams (b. 1918 or1920, 716832 Royal Air Force) and contains an interview with his son, Rudolf Williams, documents, objects, clippings, and photographs. James Raphael Williams served as a radio and radar mechanic and later worked for British Telecom. The collection was loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Rudolf Williams and catalogued by Barry Hunter. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-07-07 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Williams, JR Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document RW: My name is Rosita [Semler] when I was first born, and I lived in Munich and I came to this little town called Obernburg am Main in Northern Bavaria when I was two and three quarters old and, and then I lived there until we moved in 1950 to Frankfurt. I remember very well that on the 8th of May 1945 the war finished and I don’t know why I remember that because instances during the war were that we had a very disrupted folkschuler. During the war I had to go to piano lessons because my mother was wonderful on the piano and she wanted me to go to lessons as well but I was not as talented and there were no teachers. No male teachers. No female teachers. So a friend of mine and I had to go to the station and go about twenty miles north of where the train stopped in our town. And all I remember is that we saw planes in the air which were high high up and they looked very tiny and then they came down and shot at the train and I remember that shooting and so on and that’s why my mother said, ‘No. Rosita can’t go to the piano lessons anymore.’ And the other friend’s mother also said, ‘No. They can’t go anymore.’ [recording paused] RW: One day I was there roller skating and had the roller skates on my feet and we again looked up into the sky. It was sunshine. It was summer and wonderful. These little planes, and suddenly they came down into our eye level almost and shot at our town and my friend and I we just ran for our house because it was nearby and we went down with the roller skates on into our cellar which was a proper wine cellar and there were lots of barrels of wine in it and we nearly fell but we were holding on on the side and that way we could manage to get down. And of course we were all alone in the cellar. There was nobody else in the cellar and it actually meant that my mother was out and we were huddling together in the, in the war. [recording paused] I remember when the Americans came first and rolled into our town which was only like a market town and I opened a big door which was our business door and I looked straight at a, at a Panzer and they were all black faces in it. Negroes. And of course what the Americans did when they advanced they sent the black people first so that they could be shot first and that’s what I saw and that was the first we saw of anybody strange you know being in tanks. [recording paused] Interviewer: Did you then speak to them? Once the Americans arrived in your village what happened? RW: No. No. We couldn’t speak to them. That was when they were advancing. When they were rolling along and the tank was actually on the move. It had to move on through the town and on to the next village. Interviewer: And what happened to your bridge? RW: To the bridge? Oh, yes. Well, the Germans they were retreating into a big, forested area which was all oak forest and behind them they blew up our bridge and right on the other side of the river was our station. In other words we just had to cross the bridge to walk to the station and therefore we had no more station. We had no more bridge to go to and so on and that was what the German did for us. In other words it was terrible. We got bombed big by the Germans themselves because they were shooting at the advancing Americans and therefore they hit our town. We hated all the Germans because they did that to our town. [recording paused] RW: We had all this wine in the cellar which was actually meant for the troops and periodically it was being taken out of the barrels and put into bottles and collected for the German troops and I remember that very well. And also because we had a lot of prisoners of war, they were mainly Polish and they worked for the farmers and I remember that very well. And my mother had a big St Bernard dog and she would always answer whoever came to the door. She would answer the door by having the dog at her side. They gave a threatening to shoot the dog and meaning these were the Polish people. They came during the day and then in the night they actually broke in because they knew there was only my mother and I sort of protecting this wine and this was all still wine for the German troops. Interviewer: And what happened when they broke in? RW: Yes, they broke in and during the daytime and we had somebody who was maintaining the barrels in the cellar. They were shooting around with the pistols and so on and first of all they had threatened to shoot my mother somewhere you know, leg or something like that and shoot the dog completely and then they went to the cellar and they were shooting around there. The Americans they, they put patrols, meaning guards at night time and they actually told us they shot one of the Poles during night time when they were breaking into our home. [recording paused] RW: Yes. My father was ten years in the war. Interviewer: He was taken prisoner when did you say? On VE day. RW: Yes. Yes. Well, it must have been when the war finished. Interviewer: Ah, so he wasn’t captured before the end of the war but then the Germans surrendered and then he was captured in Norway you are saying. RW: Yes. Interviewer: I understand. RW: And he was taken to France. [recording paused] RW: We spent more time in the air raid shelter than on our benches in school because it was, it was there were no teachers and there were no main members of the community sort of middle age. You couldn’t get a workman or anybody because there was just nobody. Everybody was in the war. [recording paused] RW: Once we knew that an Englishman was captured. His plane was shot down and he landed somewhere near in the fields and he was an Englishman and he became a prisoner of war. We thought it was tremendous. Fantastic. You know, it was wonderful that this Englishman was captured by the Germans. We didn’t really know what was going on and we didn’t really [pause] there were, there were no messages between the towns and so on because, we’ll communication just had broken down. [recording paused] RW: Oh, the films we saw when the cinemas opened again of course they were mainly films which the Germans shot and they were German Austrian films and I remember all the Austrian actors and so on and they had to be clean. It was just humorous and funny and so on. But then we were also shown in the cinema and we had to have these shown to us about the concentration camps. Interviewer: How old, how old were you when you were shown that? RW: Well, I have lived with that all my life because here I live in Golders Green and the people I’ve met over the years are all the Jewish people and I have suffered from that all my life. Interviewer: Do you think because of — RW: All the Jewish [unclear] Interviewer: Do you think because of the films you were shown? RW: Sorry? Interviewer: Is that because of the films they showed you? RW: Yes, and because when I came here as, as an au pair in about when I was twenty years old I was working actually for a Jewish family without knowing it and one day they told me that they were Jewish and they were so good and kind to me and I couldn’t believe it. And I have always suffered under the burden the Germans did to the Jews because I was mixing with the Jews and even here where I live now in my home the neighbours were Jewish people for a period and yes, are friends of mine. Interviewer: How old, how old were you when they showed you the films? RW: Oh, soon after the war finished we were shown. We had to be shown also in the grammar school. We had to be shown these films. Interviewer: But you were what? Twelve? Twelve years old? RW: Oh no. It was perhaps when I was ten. Ten/eleven. Interviewer: And I mean the films, you’ve seen them since, are these the same films that we’ve now seen as adults that you were shown as a child? RW: Well, it was just, it was just terrible. I couldn’t even look at it. Interviewer: Yeah, and who, who took you? RW: I have to say. Interviewer: Who took you to see it? You said you had to go. Who, who was leading this? RW: Oh, we had to see them officially with the whole class. We had to go with our classes and go to be shown these things. Interviewer: What — RW: And — Interviewer: What would you say now as an adult to those officials who made you go and see that as a school child? RW: Well, at the very moment I’m actually in isolation and that Jewish people in my road actually caring enough to phone me. It means so much to me that they have no grudges against a German person who has lived from twenty one years to now. I’m eighty four here in this country. It’s a personal thing. It’s I and I alone because I told other people about it and I said, ‘How can you ever live that down?’ And they said, ‘Because you were children.’ It’s just my story. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AWilliamsR200505 Title A name given to the resource Interview with Anna Williams Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2020-05-05 Description An account of the resource Rosita Williams nee Semler grew up near Frankfurt during the Second World War. Her education was very disrupted by the war including her piano lessons when there were no local teachers. She was on a train when it was shot up by fighters. She was roller skating with a friend when her town came under attack and she and her friend fled to her cellar where they huddled in fear until the raid finished. She described the last days of the war in Germany. She saw the American troops sweep through the town as they advanced at the end of the war and also recalled when a British flyer was captured nearby. A released Polish prisoner threatened her mother with guns when they were trying to steal wine from the cellar. At the end of the war when only about ten years of age she was shown the films of concentration camps which affected her for the rest of her life. Recorded over the telephone. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rudolf Williams Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Civilian Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:15:54 audio recording Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending revision of OH transcription Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Germany Great Britain Germany--Bavaria England--London Germany--Frankfurt am Main Germany--Munich Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1945 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julie Tompkins animal bombing childhood in wartime Holocaust home front strafing https://ibccdigitalarchive.omeka.net/files/original/2836/57351/BGaddPGaddGEv1.jpg f98d85b14ee62b534e7e4089a9e5cd07 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Gadd, George Edward Gadd, G E Description An account of the resource Five items. The collection concerns Sergeant George Edward Gadd (b. 1923, 1216729 Royal Air Force) and contains documents and correspondence. He flew operations as an air gunner with 101 Squadron and was killed 3 April 1943. <br /><br />The collection was loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Philip Gadd and catalogued by Andy Fitter. <br /><br />Additional information on George Gadd is available via the&nbsp;<a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/108281/">IBCC Losses Database.</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-04-16 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Gadd, GE Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource George Edward Gadd Description An account of the resource Personal research on George Edward Gadd by his younger brother. It describes how he died and how his parents found out about his death on their way to visit him. It also mentions his amateur boxing and engagement to Kathleen Smith, a farmer's daughter. The research includes some details of one of George's brothers, who joined the Royal Navy and took part in the D-Day landings. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Phillip Gadd Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1988 1995 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Great Britain England--Yorkshire Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Royal Navy Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Text. Personal research Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource One printed page Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BGaddPGaddGEv1 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. air gunner aircrew anti-aircraft fire childhood in wartime final resting place ground personnel Home Guard killed in action Lancaster love and romance Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944) padre sport https://ibccdigitalarchive.omeka.net/files/original/2927/56869/PJenningsHW1803.jpg 6d9c2e4ff6c78a00d7372301b9d3720a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jennings, Herbert William Jennings, H W Description An account of the resource 27 items. The collection concerns Herbert William Jennings (411560 Royal Air Force) and contains correspondence, documents, and photographs. He flew operations as an air gunner with 61 Squadron and was killed 23 September 1944. <br /><br />The collection was loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Graham Pearson and catalogued by Jan Johnstone.<br /><br />Additional information on Herbert William Jennings is available via the <a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/112128/">IBCC Losses Database.</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-06-28 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Jennings, HW Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PJenningsHW1803 Title A name given to the resource Children with crashed aircraft Description An account of the resource Two girls standing on the fuselage and a third sitting in a gun turret of a crashed aircraft. The letters QR and K of 61 Squadron are painted on the fuselage. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Type The nature or genre of the resource Photograph Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource One b/w photocopy Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive 61 Squadron childhood in wartime crash Lancaster https://ibccdigitalarchive.omeka.net/files/original/3043/56388/AClarkD3-250901.mp3 8bab390dfc47ad1103b7468852c9e487 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Clark, Douglas 02061936 Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Douglas Clark (b.1936). The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-09-01 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Clark, D-3 Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document NM: So, it’s Monday the 1st of September 2025 and I’m with Doug Clark in his flat in Milton Keynes. Also with us is Margaret Egglestone. My name is Nigel Moore and we’re going to talk to Doug about his childhood growing up in Lincolnshire. So Doug — DC: Yes. NM: First of all when were you born and where were you born and tell us about your childhood. DC: I was born on the 2nd of June 1936 at a place called Oxcombe. Near, that’s O X C O M B E. Oxcombe near Louth in Lincolnshire. Yeah. My parents who were, the place where I was born was Oxcombe and it’s just a hamlet really. There’s three pairs of houses, a church and a farmhouse and stables. That’s all there is there really and I went back there, it was the first time I’ve ever been since I was born, about three years ago wasn’t it? ME: No. It’s only last year. DC: Yeah. ME: Last year. DC: It wasn’t last year. It was when Grace died. ME: Oh, I beg your pardon. Yes. I’ve got muddled up. Was that three years ago? DC: Yeah. ME: Oh, okay. Sorry. DC: Yeah. So, yeah and it was quite interesting to go there. See that I was baptised in the church in the July following my date of birth and yeah it was good to see the place you know and see my name in the Baptist Register. So that was good. Lincolnshire — NM: So did your mum and dad stay in the village or — DC: They, farmworkers always move from one farm to another about every two years. I think the grass is always greener on the other side because they, about two years is the maximum they stay anywhere and so much so that they all move on the same day. The 6th of April and they call it Lady Day for some reason. But they all move on the same day. And that’s what they did. So the 6th of April came and we moved on to another farm. They’d stay a couple of years and then move on again and as I say they all move on the same day so all these farm workers moving. NM: So did, your dad was a farm worker then. Did he have a special, did he have a speciality at all? DC: No. I went to a secondary modern school. ME: Dad, he’s asking about your father. What your father did on the farm. DC: Oh, my father. ME: Yeah. DC: My father was a horseman. He looked after the horses and he would, anything to be with horses really you know. He loved it and that was his job there. NM: Right. ME: Your mum kept house. DC: And I think they probably went to another farm because the horses were better horses or something and you know the — NM: Right. DC: That was the way they lived. NM: What about your mum? Did she have a special role? DC: My mum. She was just a housewife. She was quite happy doing the housework and I had a brother who was by then about twenty weeks, twenty months old. Dennis. And so she looked after him and both of us of course and that was the kind of life we lived you know. It was very basic but we always had food and that was the main thing. NM: So you moved around in Lincolnshire. DC: Yes. Yeah. Not [pause] not really a lot. We moved to a place called Heighington which is halfway between Lincoln and Louth. About sixteen miles to Lincoln and ten to Louth and we lived there for about four years. Oh more than that. More than that. Moved there when I was about three and didn’t leave ‘til I, I suppose it was [pause] yeah it was about [pause] yeah it was about five years. We must have worked in, they must have lived in Heighington. NM: So if you moved there when you were three in ’39 that was when the war was starting wasn’t it? DC: Yeah. Yeah, I was there when the war started and quite near to Ludford Magna airport and we used to watch the Lancasters leaving at night and we could hear them then coming back the following day. The following morning. And yeah, so I went to Market Rasen Modern, Secondary Modern School. Didn’t really have any qualifications except that they reported that I was quite good at art and I’m colour blind so [laughs] ME: I thought, I don’t know whether you’re interested but we’ve been trying to do Doug’s life story because his family sort of not sure. So, I mean he’s actually written down in more, because obviously when he’s being interviewed he doesn’t always think of — DC: I’m in the process of writing my memoirs so — ME: So he, he — NM: That would be good. Yeah. DC: Yeah. And it tells all about where I lived and all the things that happened during the year that I was born you know. Like the Jarrow March. NM: Okay. Yeah That would be very interesting. DC: Yeah. That happened. NM: What we can do later is possibly get that scanned. ME: Yeah. NM: And get it attached to the interview. ME: Yeah, because I’m helping him at the moment. Just helping him to, I’m proofreading it. NM: Right. ME: And that sort of thing because like when he was born — NM: Yeah. ME: There had been several kings. There was George the Fifth. When he died — NM: Yeah. ME: Edward the Eighth became king and abdicated in the December and George the Sixth became king. NM: That’s right. ME: It was the first flight of the Spitfire that took place from Eastleigh Aerodrome. NM: Yeah. What we’ll do is we’ll get that scanned. ME: Okay. NM: At some point. ME: Yeah. ME: Yeah. NM: I won’t take it away today obviously. ME: No. NM: If it’s being worked on. ME: Yes. DC: Yeah. NM: And we’ll work with the people in Lincoln. When it’s ready — ME: Yeah. NM: We can get a copy sent electronically possibly — ME: Yeah. NM: Up to Lincoln and it will go into Doug’s collection alongside the interview that we’re doing now. ME: Okay. NM: So that’s what we’ll do with that. ME: Yeah because I think it just, I mean did you want to while you’re having your interview because there’s quite some good things in here that you will sort of not record. NM: Well, we might go back to a few things. DC: Yeah. ME: Yeah. Okay. DC: Yeah. And then we’ll pick that back up but if there is something missing than obviously please please help. ME: Yeah. DC: Yeah. NM: I was going to go back to your junior school before you went to Market Rasen. DC: Yeah. I left school. I didn’t have any real qualifications and so I wasn’t interested really in anything except working on the farm and driving a tractor. That was my ambition [laughs] NM: That was later though wasn’t it because — DC: Yeah. NM: Because the war started when you were just three. DC: Yeah. NM: What are your early recollections then? DC: My early recollections of the war? NM: Yeah. DC: Was seeing Wimpy lorries. Waiting. We were waiting with my mother at the centre of Heighington for a bus to go to Louth and there would be lorry after lorry after lorry. Yellow painted. You know, Wimpy trucks and they were building Ludford Magna airport which was just another mile up the road from where we were waiting you know. And then we didn’t know what was happening really because I was too young but then the sky started to fill with aircraft. Lancasters everywhere in the end. Yeah. We used to watch them leave and come back. Yeah. So — ME: You used to spend your holidays going to the beach and things didn’t you? DC: Yeah. Mablethorpe usually. Just going to the beach and you didn’t have proper holidays in those days. NM: No. That’s right. DC: We, we just went to the beach and had a ride on a donkey and whatever. NM: So what about your junior school when you were — DC: The Junior School. Yeah. Lived very close to my school. You could see it from the house that I lived in and yeah it was pretty basic really. There was two teachers and eventually had a canteen and there was a cook employed there and so we did get a lunchtime meal. Then the next move was to Market Rasen. The Secondary Modern School. So [pause] yeah. ME: But there was only really you and Dennis wasn’t there? So you just used to play with your older brother in them days didn’t you? DC: Yeah. Before I went to school I hardly saw any other children because it was so sparsely populated that mixing with other children was quite daunting really I suppose you know and we got on fine. That was junior school. Made friends and you know. ME: [unclear] NM: Can you remember how the war affected your life at all in the early days at all? DC: Well, the rationing of course but we lived on a farm so occasionally we could and the farmer was also a butcher so we could get a joint every [pause] dodge the rationing a bit but not too much you know and the groceries were delivered from a shop in East Barkwith and I remember the ration books and clipping the coupons out because we, he, I don’t know how he reckoned it out but he clipped so many coupons out of the ration book you know. So yeah. That was another experience. NM: What about any air raids at all? Do you remember? DC: Didn’t have air raids. We were, there was a bomb that dropped about a half a mile away and near a farm and of course the next morning we went to see what damage it had done and the shrapnel had gone straight through the house. The holes in the doors and straight out the window and there were people sitting in the room at the time you know. They were very lucky. A great big hole in the field outside and shrapnel everywhere. But that was the nearest we got to being bombed really but we could watch the German aircraft at night being in the searchlights. They had the searchlight station near [pause] West Barkwith up the hill from Heighington and you could see them. They came. They were in the searchlights you know then there was no chance of ever going home again you know. But you never saw them shot down but they did shoot them down. Yeah. And then what, I’m trying to think what happened then. There was as I say there were Lancasters everywhere. But when I was working on the farms this was just after the war now the Manby airfield was close to where we, where I was were working in a field and they were training pilots on Chipmunk aircraft. The pilots would come so close to us we could wave to them and they waved back and, yeah. That was quite good. I got interested in aircraft and I at seventeen, not seventeen, yes it was seventeen, at seventeen I joined the Royal Observer Corps tracking. The war had finished by then obviously but the RAF used to send up Meteors and Sabres and fox and terriers and we used to track their positions and report in and they could home in on each other. They might be two hundred miles apart to start with you know but it was just an exercise that continued after the war to keep us happy I suppose you know. NM: Okay. We’ll perhaps come back to that in a minute. DC: Yeah. NM: But taking you back into the war years. DC: Yeah. NM: There were a lot of bomber stations in Lincolnshire. Did you ever mix or meet up with RAF personnel at all? Did they come across there? DC: Well as we, as we got a bit older. I don’t remember ever mixing with them really except they used to go to the village dances and that kind of thing. It was, it seemed funny to me that the RAF was a different type of life to the Army. The Army were over in France or wherever they were. No, no contact with home except whatever means they had. But the RAF they could be going out with their girlfriends one night and they were flying the next you know. Yeah. NM: So they used to have village dances did they and they used to come in the village. DC: Yeah. They used to come from Ludford Magna to a place called Tealby and we used to go to the dances there and they would be there and yeah. But it never sort of mixed or anything because they were much older than us you see. NM: Yeah. Yeah. DC: Yeah. NM: You were still a young boy at the time. DC: Yeah. NM: But so as a young boy during the war what did you actually think of the war? Was it something to be frightened of or was it an adventure? DC: It was frightening sometimes when the, you know when there was so many aircraft about and they were dropping this blooming Window. You know the foil that they used to drop big bunches of it everywhere you know and I remember that. To zap the radar you know. So — NM: Did you ever pick any up? Collect any? DC: Yeah. It was just all over the field. We used to run about with it looking you know. Once it hit the floor, hit the ground it was anybody’s really you know. Yeah. NM: Are you going to say about the Lancaster that crashed? DC: Yeah. There was a Lancaster that crashed near us. It was a terrible thing really. It was a night when it was dark, foggy and they couldn’t find the airfield and I think there was about twenty Lancasters lost that evening. They crashed. This one crashed through the woods. I was walking up the road the following morning and I saw this about fifteen foot of fuselage in the field. Wreckage everywhere you know and so yeah. There was, the Army had a camp in the woods and they had their lorries parked on the roadside and one of them was wrecked as well. But it had gone through the trees and landed in the field but — NM: So it was coming back from an operation then. DC: Yeah. Yeah. They were coming back from Germany. I can’t remember where they said they’d been but I’ve done it. I did a bit of research on that and found the name of the pilot and everything. NM: Yeah. DC: And I left. I collected some small bits of wreckage and I kept them. This was when I was seven years old then and I handed them in at the Bomber Command place. NM: Yeah. Peter Jones told me about that. That’s fine. ME: Thank you. NM: Did you actually hear the crash or did you just come across it the next morning? DC: I just came across it the next day and [pause] but it was about, there was a group of about seven of us. Country, village lads you know and they were, I was seven and the others were fifteen and we couldn’t wait for the RAF to go. And the RAF took all that they wanted. It took them about a week to clear their side. Their bit of it you know. And then we went on there to see what we could find. NM: You went exploring did you? DC: We found a wristwatch and handed that to the police and I thought it may have been the navigator’s but somebody said since they had a special watch. I think I learned that when I was at the Bomber Command place. NM: Okay. DC: Yeah. But they, we did find this watch and handed it to the police but we found belts and belts of spent ammunition and oh we had some fun with that really. But it’s amazing that we’re alive to be honest because we used to [pause] several several belts of bullets and we, we’d take them out of the casing, out of the belt and pull the points out, stand on the road and get the cordite burning inside. Of course the cap was still live wasn’t it so it would explode and the casing would go flying up in the air you know [laughs] It was good fun. But then every fifth I think it was was a pinpoint tracer you know. And the point itself has a charge in it for tracking where the, where the shots are going. We decided we’d light a fire with Perspex from the aircraft windows and lay these points. We pulled them out. We laid them on and we knew they were explosive because they had a charge in them and they’d go bang and they’d go flying and we were all sitting around this [laughs] I think I said somewhere it was nearer to Russian roulette than anything else really. NM: That was going through my mind actually when you said that. I thought like Russian roulette. DC: So that was good fun. ME: You made rings out of the Perspex’s didn’t you that you found. DC: Oh, rings. ME: Yeah. DC: Yeah, we used to gather the Perspex and take a piece of Perspex you know and stick a red hot poker through it and then make it into a ring and we we actually thought they looked great [laughs] NM: Well, you were seven. It was, it sounds like it was an adventure. DC: Yeah. So that was fun, so — ME: You didn’t hear anything more about the watch did you that you handed into the police. DC: Yeah. We didn’t hear any more about that and of course all the, all the watches were the same apparently except the navigators’ so — NM: You, you told Peter when you went to the Bomber Command Centre that was a 12 Squadron Lancaster. DC: Yes. NM: You had the registration number and just for your interest I’ve looked it up. It was only sixteen days on the squadron. It only arrived on the end of, it arrived on the 30th of November at Wickenby. DC: Wickenby. Yes. NM: And it crashed on December the 16th. DC: Yeah. NM: So it had a life of just over two weeks. DC: It was a fairly new aircraft actually. NM: That’s right. DC: Yeah. NM: So — DC: One of the Goons — [pause] ME: Harry Secombe. NM: Bentine. Michael Bentine. DC: Sorry? What was his name? Anyway, he was stationed at Wickenby and he was convinced that he’d seen one of the guys that was on this plane after it had crashed and he said he said goodnight to him and he said, ‘Cheers. Goodnight.’ You know. They were going to their billets. Who was the [pause] Do you remember the Goons? ME: Harry Secombe. DC: Who? ME: Harry Secombe. NM: Michael Bentine. ME: Michael Bentine. DC: I’m sorry? NM: I think he was RAF wasn’t he? Michael Bentine. DC: It wasn’t — NM: Spike Milligan. No, he wasn’t. He was Army. DC: No. NM: Anyway. DC: I forget. Anyway, he was one of the, one of the Goons. NM: But you said there was nobody killed in the crash. DC: He wasn’t killed. NM: Right. DC: But he was — NM: The crew. DC: Stationed at Wickenby where the aircraft came from. NM: Yeah. DC: And he was convinced that he’d said good night to the guy who had been killed you know. NM: Oh, they were. DC: Yeah. NM: The crew were killed were they? DC: He was already killed in the in the crashed aircraft. NM: Oh really. DC: Yeah. ME: Because all the, all the people — NM: Were they — ME: The crew that you saw the crash only one survived the crash and got taken to hospital didn’t he? DC: Yeah. But he died the next day apparently. NM: They were all killed. Oh, I hadn’t realised that. DC: They were all killed. Yeah. All seven of them and [pause] I did find out that there’s a guy that has written a book and he, his name’s Knott and he [pause] he was a friend of the son of the navigator and so he had written this book and it mentioned that you know. That he was a friend and the navigator’s son was running a pub up in in the Midlands somewhere. He was a friend of his. But yeah. Otherwise, the war years you know. I remember VE day and VJ day. NM: Tell me about VE day then. DC: Well, it was just a big party you know in one of the old Army buildings that they’d used previously and all the village got together and we had balloons and Union Jacks and everything. A great day. Yeah. So — NM: But the RAF gradually left some of these airfields. Did you, were you aware of that after the war? DC: Sorry? NM: When the RAF left some of these airfields after the war did you — DC: Yeah. NM: Were you aware of that? DC: Yeah. We never, we never went back to any of them that I remember but there were as you know hundreds well about thirty or something in Lincolnshire. They were everywhere you know. ME: Another — DC: Wickenby, Faldingworth. NM: Yeah. DC: Binbrook, Ludford Magna, everywhere. ME: What about the prisoner of war camp that you you said they came and helped at your — DC: The — ME: The prisoner of war — DC: Oh yeah. In, it was 1947, war was finished but we still had German prisoners of war in various places and in that year the snow was so bad the roads were all blocked up and they sent a team of German prisoners out to dig the roads out. And we lived in this house in the country. We had a wash house. Have you heard of the old wash house with a boiler in there and they came to the house and said could, could they use our wash house and my mother said, ‘Yeah. You can use it.’ They went to make coffee for the guys who were digging the roads out and two of them sat there all day just making the coffee and, you know sawing us wood. They went up to the woods and they got so much wood. It was enough to last until next year you know. They were really friendly and good to be with you know. One of them made a cradle for my sister’s dolls you know. NM: So you went to Market Rasen Secondary School. DC: Yes. Yeah. NM: Did you, what age were you when you left? DC: I left. Fifteen. NM: Fifteen. And what did you do then? DC: Went straight into farmwork driving a tractor which was what I wanted to do. It was [laughs] Eventually we, he was good. A good guy to work for but I was driving a tractor, milking the cows by hand and feeding the chickens. Looking after the chickens. General farm work. NM: So was this all in Heighington? DC: Was what sorry? NM: Was this where you grew up? In Heighington? In Heighington. But this village where the farm where I worked was in Benniworth which was about three miles away, you know. So I used to go there and — ME: How did you get there Doug? DC: Pardon? ME: How did you get to work? DC: Well, by bike at first and then my dad bought me an autobike, autocycle. A motorised one. I was really chuffed with that [laughs] NM: So did you ever work at your dad’s farm with your dad? DC: No. No. He was, he was always on a different farm to me for some reason but I didn’t move around too much. I went to this, the first one, farm that I worked. I was there about three year I suppose. No. Two years and then we moved. The family moved to nearer to Louth to a place called Fockerby and I think there was a smallholding there. And after that oh I was working for a company that did it was a farm but they didn’t, all they kept the only livestock they had was chickens and there were contractors for combine harvesting and land drainage so we were combining in the summer and then in the winter land drainage, you know. Combining wasn’t a good — ME: That’s how you got — DC: I finished up this lung thing because all this dust and everything and you didn’t have any protection or anything in those days. Yeah and so I was quite please really when it was time for me to be called up into the Army. NM: Was that National Service? DC: National Service. Yeah. Two years in the National Service. NM: Did you have a choice as to which branch you went into? DC: We did. We did. But I asked to go in the REME because my brother was already in the REME and I thought we, it might be a chance that we would be together, you know but they sent me down to Honiton in Devon and then they decided that we all had various tests to see sort of intelligence tests and English and whatever and they decided that I would be better off in the Military Police. So I got transferred then to Woking in Surrey and did six months training in the Military Police and then went out to Germany and I kind of enjoyed that. It was quite a good place to be in those days, you know. The war was over obviously and I met my wife over there as it happened. Her father was in the Army. He was an officer so I wasn’t really supposed to even talk to her you know. But my friend was also going out, it was quite a strange situation because they weren’t, the officers weren’t in any way allowed to mix with other ranks, right. So, but my friend was already seeing one of the daughters. He had two daughters this major and so every time he went, she went out my, the one that became my wife the two sisters had to go out so she was always the odd one and she went out there just because the father wasn’t supposed to know that she was going out with a military policeman you see. So anyway, we were out one evening a bit before Christmas. There was my friend Pete from Boston and the two girls and it so happened that their parents were away on holiday so we all went back to their house for a coffee. NM: So what — DC: Yeah. It was the Christmas then. I got invited up there for Christmas lunch so I’d already had a big lunch in the canteen in the mess anyway so at the Military Police mess we’d had a Christmas dinner [laughs] I couldn’t say no could I? [laughs] So — NM: So what years were you doing National Service? DC: Pardon? NM: What years? Can you remember the dates you were doing — DC: Just two years. 1955 to 1957. January. ME: What about when you had to charge Mona’s mother? DC: Oh yeah [laughs] Oh yeah. That was good. The officers all lived in officer’s quarters you know and I was sitting there one in the lounge one afternoon and her father had taken her mother out for a driving lesson. Just driving the car around the, it was an open plan estate. A really big estate. A really big garrison town it was. Probably about five thousand people on there. Anyway, we heard this big crash you know and looked out the window and her mother had driven the car around a corner and she hadn’t straightened the wheel up. She went straight in the front of this house and the bonnet was like that. Oh God. You know. I thought, and I was at that time on the Traffic Accident Department. NM: Oh really. DC: Yeah. So I had to go out and measure up and do everything and the, my commander lived next door to them and he said, I put a report in obviously, he said, ‘Oh, yeah, he said, ‘And did they have L plates on the car corporal?’ I said, ‘No. They didn’t.’ ‘Well, you know what to do about that then.’ He said. I was to then drop them in it you know because they didn’t have L plates on the car you know. So I don’t know what happened really about that but they obviously straightened things out somehow or other. I don’t know how but it was — NM: So where were you stationed in Germany? DC: Munchen Gladbach. Well, you hear about it now because of the football teams and that but Rheindahlen was the Headquarters of the British Army of the Rhine and there was a massive building there with seven miles of corridors in it you know and we had to man the entrances. That was the first job we got was security on the entrances but it was, it was all guarded and always the guards with loaded weapons. ME: Just going back. Just going back to Mona. Her father, he’d been captured by the Japs hadn’t he? DC: You what, sorry? ME: Mona’s father had been captured by the Japs. DC: Oh, he had. Yeah. Oh yeah. The whole family. There was a father, a mother and three [pause] Oh, yeah, five children and they were in Singapore when the Japs moved in and he was captured of course and put in Changi and they had to get out as quick as they could and they, the ships that had taken them out they got a ship to South Africa and they spent the rest of the war in South Africa. But in my filing cabinet I have a list of passengers on this ship that took them and there were, I don’t know if you know there’s a list of passengers and there is all their names and ages on this list. I managed to get a copy of the passenger list of the ship that took them out to Singapore. They were very lucky to get out. I think there was only about seven ships that got out without being sunk you know. So — NM: And he obviously survived the war and they were reunited at the end. DC: Yeah. NM: Yeah. DC: Yeah. Yeah. They, he came back in the end but — NM: So — DC: Thank you. NM: So tell me about the time when you were in the Royal Observer Corps. Was this before you went to National Service or after? DC: It was before I went into National Service. NM: So how come, how did you get into the Royal Observer Corps? What was the process? DC: Into the Observer Corps? NM: Yeah. DC: My boss. My boss had been in the Observer Corps. This was a farmer I worked for. He had been in the Observer Corps and he met his wife. She was on the centre in Lincoln so he had met his wife through that. But the, one of the other guys that worked on the farm was already in the Observer Corps and so I joined and it was, yeah it was quite an interesting thing to be doing you know. It was. Yeah. NM: So how long did you do that for? DC: When I was seventeen, [pause] seventeen, eighteen, a couple of years I suppose because then I had to go in to the Army anyway. So first in the Observer Corps. NM: So you had observation posts nearby did you? DC: There was one in the village and they were in almost all, well I don’t know how far they were apart really. I suppose they were about two or three miles apart all over the country you know and we’d track. We’d take a reading off an instrument that we had and the height and speed and if we could recognise it and we had to recognise it. We had lots of tests about recognising aircraft and I can still remember most of the older ones you know. As soon as I see it I think oh there’s a Viscount and that’s a [pause] and, you know. But, but then when I came out of the, when I came out of the Army because I’d been in the Military Police I tried to get into the civvy police here. So I took the entrance exam. I passed the entrance exam. Went for a medical. Slightly colour blind. So no chance after that. I’ve tried about six constabularies different places and there is no chance. Once they, once they’d found out that you were colour blind I suppose they’ve got a right to do it really. You know, chasing a green car when it should be a red one or something [laughs] it would be a bit embarrassing wouldn’t it, you know. So I didn’t get into that but I went into the aircraft industry then. NM: Oh, you did. DC: Yeah. NM: What did you, what was that then? What was your role? DC: I was a fitter in the [pause] I did a training course in aircraft fitting and worked on the Comet 4s. They were building the Comet 4 at the time and I was a fitter on those. And then there was a space between the Comets and the Trident so I thought, and they were getting rid of people so I thought I’d better get out of this otherwise I won’t have a job you know because I was a fitter but they needed to get rid of people because there was a gap when they started construction on the Trident. So I contacted Handley Page and got a job there as an airframe fitter on the Victors. NM: So the work you did on the Comet. That was in Hatfield was it? DC: That was at Hatfield. Yes. Yeah. NM: So you moved down there. DC: It was. Yeah. NM: Did you live in Hatfield? DC: I did live in Hatfield for a while. Yes. NM: So how long were you at de Havilland’s then? DC: I was at de Havilland’s about two years I suppose. It seems such a long time ago now you know. It was at a time when the Manchester United crashed. I remember that. I was working in the fitting shop at de Havilland’s when we heard that. Anyway, I went down to Handley Page and was an airframe fitter and just general modifications really you know. NM: So did you move house from Hatfield or did you just stay in Hatfield and work in Radley? DC: I was living in St Albans. I was already married then and I was living in St Albans. So [laughs] ME: Because you came back from doing your National Service and Mona, your wife she was still out in Germany for a while wasn’t she? DC: Yeah. She, she was out in Germany for about another year I suppose so I was living in flats and whatever in St Albans and working at Handley Page at Radlett. Radlett and Park Street. I remember driving along the taxi way once and there was a Victor coming towards me just taxiing [laughs] I pulled over and a wing came over my car and the pilot just went [laughs] yeah. So some good times you know we had there. But yeah. NM: So how long were you at Handley Page? DC: Handley Page? About two years I suppose and then. ME: You went to night school didn’t you? DC: Went to night school. Yeah and — NM: What did you study there? DC: Oh, just general engineering. Higher National Certificate for General Engineering, you know. And then I got a [pause] while I was at Handley Page’s, that was a point, yeah I was working as a fitter and I saw all these guys I’d worked with at de Havilland’s and they were all with their collars and ties you know. Everybody wore collars and ties and I thought how did they get [pause] what sort of job have they got? You know, and they had apparently when they heard that de Havilland’s were getting rid of all these people there was a drawing office company contracting drawing office company went in there to recruit people into, as trainee draughtsmen. I thought I got out of there too quick really you know. But I knew from night school I knew one of the section leaders at this draughting place and I managed to get a job there as a trainee draughtsman. So then I was draughting for ages. NM: So, where was that? Where was that based? DC: That was in Boreham Woods. Elstree. Right next door to the studios there in Elstree and, yeah so it was a contract drawing office so you never knew where you were going to finish up you know. You’d go in one morning and they’d say, can you build so and so and be out there tomorrow morning? Oh yeah. You didn’t know at first. You might [pause] it might be civil engineering. It might be anything mechanical and they’d say, ‘It’ll be alright. You’ll get out of there.’ [laughs] Yeah. They sent me to Handley Page again and I worked in the drawing office there and they said will you, will you go out to — no. They said, ‘Tomorrow morning Handley Page want you out there.’ I said, ‘What to do?’ They said, ‘Design aircraft controls.’ I said, ‘I’ve never done that.’ ‘You’ll do it. Get out there.’ They didn’t care you know. And so I spent about fifteen years standing at a drawing board and did various mechanical. And then we had the contract with the, they had a contract with the government to do what they called DTLs. Draught Technical Leaflets for the RAF and we had to go. What we would do is the, say Avro would, would decide that they needed to do some changes to the Vulcan and they would send the details to the, to the Ministry and they would approve whatever it was and then we got the job of writing the technical, Draught Technical Leaflet to instruct the RAF on how the, what they should have to do to incorporate this change, you know. It was you had to tell them every single thing they’d got to do to make the change. There was even a specification for, a requirement for what bolts you could throw away if they could throw away and what they had to keep for various other, and so they had to get rid of certain things and other things were a bit more security based. Those things they couldn’t get rid of but there was a special way of getting rid of them you know. So, so instructing the RAF on what they had to do to incorporate this change you know. And I worked on the Shackletons at Woodford and I have actually been on a Lancaster. But I remember thinking how difficult it must have been to have got out of those things, you know. there was the main spar goes through. You have to climb over the main spar to go [laughs] to the front. If you were diving I can’t think of how the hell you’d get out of that thing, you know and, yeah. So and then I worked on the Shackleton. It became a Mark 3. A Mark 3 Shackleton. What they did really was take the tail wheel off and put it on the front and called it tricycle undercarriage. But they put tip tanks on that thing and they used it for coastal defence and they had tip tanks and I think they put some small jet assistance on them but they could fly to Japan without stopping. Yeah. That’s a long way. NM: So were you still the contract draughtsman at this point working on the Shackleton? DC: Yes. NM: You were contracted out. DC: We were incorporating changes. NM: Right. DC: And it always surprised me on how thick the instrument panels had got to be because it’s like a piece of pastry when you’ve taken all the bits out. There’s nothing left. The instrument panels are maybe an inch thick you know because there’s nothing left of them. There are so many instruments in there that it surprised me at first to see how thick they were you know. Yeah. So then I worked at Cranfield for a while. That was a good place to work. I enjoyed that because we used to go flying from there but almost everybody that worked at the College of Cranfield had a pilot’s licence and they wanted to take somebody up. They could go halves with the fuel. So we were over the moon to get a trip out every lunchtime if we could get one you know. NM: So two questions then. What were you flying? DC: They were Beagle Pups. NM: Okay. DC: Yeah. The small ones. They had about four Beagle Pups but they did take for their own use for training a radio operator I think it was. They’d got about three Jetstreams which at Handley Page had closed by then and they’d got about three Jetstreams there. NM: So what was your role then at Cranfield. What were — DC: There. NM: Yeah. DC: We were putting a Blind Landings Experimental Unit on to a BAC 1-11. So we were designing all the bracketry and everything. The aircraft is sort of the opposite way around to normal engineering. We had to go in and decide where the designer bracket that we could fit anywhere in the aircraft within a certain area and then submit the drawing and the stress engineers then would look at it and decide if it could do what we wanted it to do to support the unit that was going to sit on it. And if they liked it and it passed all the stress tests then they’d accept it you know but anywhere else they did the, all the stress work is done first. You know, any other engineering work you know this was just the opposite way around you know. But so we did this conversion of BAC 1-11 [pause] That worked well. Then we did a head up display for a Hunter. All the gear that went in to do that you know. Yeah. So that was Cranfield. That was a good, good base. I lived in Dunstable at the time so it was quite an easy drive you know and yeah, we used to go. We had a lot of fun there and the — NM: So after Cranfield? DC: Pardon? NM: After Cranfield? DC: After Cranfield? That was my last job really in the aircraft industry because it was a funny industry really. Went in peaks and troughs you know. Different airliners were, airlines would require a plane and a designer and that would be [pause] you know and then it would be hit. When I was left Cranfield there was no more aircraft contracts around. So the very thing that was picking up was the offshore industry and some of my friends from this contract place where I was working one of them rang me and he said, he knew that I was finishing at Cranfield. They said there was no point really to go out of the office. There was no work down there and he said, ‘Why don’t you come over here to Bedford?’ I said, ‘I don’t know anything about the offshore industry.’ He said, ‘Well, neither do we.’ [laughs] So I went over there and then that started me off in a different from the lightest thing you could ever have wanted to design to something that was about as heavy as you could do. You know. It was all massive. I couldn’t believe it when I went to site in Scotland. So you looked around. There was nothing that you could pick up. The Shackles were half the size of this room you know. NM: So what were you working on? DC: Just massive you know. Just unbelievable how big everything is you know. NM: So what were you working on? DC: I’ve been in the Auk. The Auk jacket was the first thing they did. The jackets. The firm I worked for did all the what they called the jacket. That’s the bit goes below the water. The top side is another different thing altogether. It was all accommodation and all the drillings and stuff. So — NM: So these are the oil platforms in the North Sea. DC: Yeah. NM: And you worked on the jackets side of it. DC: The jacket side. Yeah. NM: The legs and the bit — DC: Yeah, the Auk and the Brent and then eventually on Magnus which was forty thousand tonnes. A Magnus. ME: You had to go up to Scotland didn’t you to work. DC: Pardon? ME: You had to go up to Scotland. DC: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I spent a long time in Scotland because we went to the job we had on the yard was to be the link between the drawing office and the foreman because to make sure the foreman was reading the drawing properly you know and that was a big and complicated job really operating the barges that we took them out on you know. And the site had a one in forty slope so when you slid this gigantic structure on to the barge it all had to, all had to line up so there was no step in it and that meant pumping water into the barge to get the barge in exactly the same slope as the land, as the slip way and then we spent all night in the freezing cold maybe pumping all the water out so that the barge then didn’t bottom at low tide you know so we had lots of fun there. It turned out you know and — ME: You had to leave Mona at home looking after the children didn’t you because you were away a lot. DC: A long time. ME: Yeah. Mona had to look after the children. DC: Oh yeah. Mona, my wife she had to look after the children. I was away a long time. Just we came back at the weekends sometimes but I spent a lot of time up there. I suppose I spent ten years in Scotland. NM: Is that right? DC: Altogether. Yeah. One side and then the other. Yeah. NM: Whereabouts in Scotland were you? DC: Methil. Just over the [pause] over the bridge. The Forth Bridge. Over the Forth Bridge and about ten miles up on the right of the country in Fife. ME: Didn’t you do some work on the Forth Bridge? DC: You remember more than I do. ME: Didn’t you do some work on the Forth Bridge up there? DC: Not on the Forth. I did some. I did some work on the Keswick Bridge. ME: Oh, the Keswick Bridge. DC: Yeah. Yeah. ME: What did you do there? DC: That was later. ME: Oh okay. DC: Yeah. NM: Was your role a sort of intermediary between the design and the actual construction was it on the oil platforms? DC: The platforms was all the construction, yeah. But the firms I was working for had done the design and then they needed somebody to oversee the construction work, you know. NM: Yeah. ME: You had lots of fun. You had lots of fun with the workforce up there didn’t you? DC: Oh, the workforce. Trying to get them to work was just [pause] They just didn’t want to work you know and sabotaged everything you did you know. Just criminal really. You know they just [pause] and they would do it in front of your face you know. The Unions were so strong that you couldn’t dare to sack somebody you know. The, they just, I’d install some cable, the electricians had installed it and I looked after it and because we had to monitor how much water was pumped in the barge and this was the night before we were taking the rig out and there’s a guy there burning some of the surplus steel off and he was going through the cable and the site superintendent was standing there with me. He said, ‘Ay stop that,’ he said, ‘You’re burning through the cable.’ And five minutes later he was doing just the same again. They didn’t care you know. They just wanted to make sure that that rig didn’t leave the site one way or another you know. NM: Oh. I see because they could then continue working. DC: Yeah. NM: It was going to be the end of their — DC: They would do anything to sabotage it so that you couldn’t — NM: Delay it. DC: Yeah. Yeah. And — NM: So after the rigs? DC: The rigs. NM: After that. DC: After the rigs what happened then? This thing. I had to go up then to the [pause] there was a firm, Britoil up in Glasgow had decided they would design a rig and I had to, there was a group of us had to go up to Glasgow. There was about, there was two companies. I suppose about two hundred of us went to Glasgow and — NM: What were you working on with Britoil? DC: For Britoil? How long? NM: No. What was the — DC: I didn’t — NM: What was the project? DC: I was working — sorry? NM: What was the project for Britoil? DC: For Britoil was the Clyde — NM: I have to ask because I used to work for Britoil. DC: Did you work at Britoil? NM: Yes. We’ll have a private conversation after the interview but — DC: Right. Well, we — NM: I can’t believe how much this interview overwraps my life. DC: We were at Linwood. In the Linwood office and it was John Brown Irving Wright that I worked for. NM: So you were in Glasgow for how long? DC: Well, I worked there [pause] on the Clyde project I was doing weight and centre of gravity and materials. On Britoil I suppose about a year and a half. Two years perhaps. NM: Yeah. DC: Yeah. Quite a long time because Humphrey’s of Glasgow were there. A lot of people there and there was another firm. Cowboys they were. ME: You was up in Glasgow for quite a lot of years in total wasn’t you? DC: Oh yeah, because I, then when I went over to the other side and because I’d been on a construction site for quite a long time I got a phone call to say would I go up to Scott Lithgow Yard up in Greenock and, because Scott Lithgow had closed by then, gone and open the yard up and run the yard and take on whatever staff I needed. And this was to build the Dartford Bridge sections and I went up there and took on over a hundred people there. Got all the [pause] the trouble was that the scrap merchants, scrap dealers had got in and pinched all the copper cable off the overhead cranes and everything and the security people were making their money and they were allowing them to do it. And there was brand new machines, pipe bending machines but they just cut up with a flame torch and you know the induction bend maybe where the bend instead of stretching the pipe if you get a big pipe when you bend it the outside becomes thin and the inside becomes thick. Now, with induction bending it’s heated up and it’s pushed through and it forms a curve and they are very expensive machines. They just burned them up you know. NM: And how long did you do that for? DC: On the site? Six months or so just until, until Dartford. The Dartford Bridge until the company that was building that was back on track again because they were getting seriously behind and they needed somebody to [pause] they just needed to get the job done I suppose you know and to get back onto programme. NM: So that was another big project. What about after the Dartford Bridge then? DC: The what, sorry? NM: After the Dartford Bridge where were you then? DC: After the Dartford Bridge? ME: When did you go out to Spain? To work out in Spain. DC: I went to work in Spain. Yeah. But I don’t know where I went from Dartford. ME: You was out in Canada as well weren’t you? DC: Pardon? ME: You was out in Canada and Spain and so when — DC: Yeah. Yeah, I was working for John Brown in London and they got this contract with the oil company. I can’t remember. They got this contract and I was doing the material take off and working out how much steel they were going to need to build the rig and I had to go out to work in Spain. It was quite a good job there because I spent a couple of weeks in Spain and then a couple of weeks back here. We were down in Cadiz. Or Caddie [laughs] And go out there for a couple of weeks and then come back and that was quite a nice contract and, yeah. And then John Brown decided that they were going to get rid of a load of people and they decided they’d get rid of me. And the oil company, Shell said, ‘You can’t get rid of him because we’re halfway through a job and you can't just pick up —’ you know. So they had to keep me on but I’d already signed the agreement and I had one of their company cars and they said, ‘Well, if Shell want to keep you you’ll have to go contract.’ So I went freelance then and I was the only freelancer that was driving one of their company cars for two months [laughs] So that was a bit of a bonus. I went freelance then and I stayed freelance then right through until I retired. NM: Right. Okay. Quite an adventure. DC: Yeah. I went to, I worked for the, on piping. I went to the refineries and went to work out in Leipzig at the big oil refinery out there and that was quite interesting as well you know just to see the other side of the, of Germany. I used, and — ME: When did you go to Canada? DC: Pardon? ME: When did you go to Canada? DC: To Canada? ME: Yeah. DC: When? ME: Was that after Germany? DC: Yes. No. No. It wouldn’t have been I don’t think. NM: So you recently went up to Lincoln to the Bomber Command Centre. DC: Yes. NM: Was that a special trip just to go and see it or — DC: Yes. NM: Just visiting the area anyway. DC: We’ve got, I’ve got a cousin who lives in Barnsley and she had, she knew all about this place because she’d been there and she said that she would drive us to Lincoln from Barnsley and we went and had lunch there and then drove over to Barnsley. Over to — ME: We went though too because you didn’t know what to do with your pieces of the Lancaster. So she arranged it so that you could see if they wanted it. DC: That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. So — NM: So what did you think to the Bomber Command Centre when you visited it? DC: Over there? NM: Yeah. What did you — DC: Brilliant. NM: Yeah. DC: Brilliant. Yeah. Yeah. It was a good. It was very well, very well done really and really well organised wasn’t it? It was really nice. A nice place. Well, it’s a Memorial so it’s as nice as it can be you know. Yeah. We enjoyed that and met some more of my relatives there you know. One of them anyway, a cousin to me. Cousin. I suppose she’s a cousin. ME: She’s a cousin once removed. Yeah. DC: Yeah. So she came and, yeah that was a good day. ME: You didn’t retire until you were in your seventies didn’t you? DC: Pardon? ME: You didn’t retire — DC: Yeah. I retired when I was seventy-two I think. Something I like. Seventy-four maybe. ME: You were doing contract work for — DC: Yeah. ME: Different companies. You’d move around with contracts doing material take off wouldn’t you? DC: Yeah. ME: Different firms. DC: Contracting. Yeah. Oil refineries. NM: Sure. DC: Working out the amount of material they would need to do various jobs and — NM: Okay. DC: Yeah. NM: A fascinating life story. So I’m just going to conclude by saying thank you very much for talking us through it. DC: A pleasure. Pleasure. NM: And this will go on to the Archive. It will get transcribed so that people can read it as well as listen to it. DC: That’s good. NM: Okay. And when you’ve finished the — ME: Yeah, because there’s a lot more in there. NM: More in there. DC: Yeah. NM: When that’s all finished we’ll arrange for it to get sent up and be part of the collection. DC: Yeah. NM: So can we conclude by saying thank you very much for your time. DC: Thank you. NM: Thank you for telling your story. Thank you Margaret for helping. DC: I’ve tried to fit everything in. NM: No that’s — DC: It was just to remember how everything all works. NM: That’s exactly what we wanted here so thank you very much indeed. DC: Thank you. NM: Thank you. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Douglas Clark Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Nigel Moore Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-09-01 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 01:20:58 Audio Recording Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AClarkD3-250901 Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943 1945 1947 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Great Britain England--Lincolnshire Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Civilian Royal Air Force Description An account of the resource Doug Clark grew up in Lincolnshire and witnessed the construction of RAF Ludford Magna. He saw the wreckage of a Lancaster crash and recalled the time when Lancasters filled the sky. After he left school, he joined the Royal Observer Corps. He went to work for the aircraft industry on the Comet and Valiant as an air frame fitter. He later worked as a draughtsman, and in the offshore oil sector. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julie Williams Carolyn Emery childhood in wartime crash killed in action Lancaster RAF Ludford Magna Royal Observer Corps Victory in Europe Day (8 May 1945) https://ibccdigitalarchive.omeka.net/files/original/3041/56384/AFitterB250507.mp3 08b5c08813b860ac91ac1c7604e1c725 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Fitter, Beryl Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Beryl Fitter. The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-05-07 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Fitter, B Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document RW: My name is Ruth Allan Williams and I’m here in the home of Beryl Fitter who lives in Maen-y-groes a little village near New Quay in West Wales. Beryl is going to tell us about her life as a child during the war. So Beryl, do you want to tell me about your early years. BF: I was born in May 1935 so therefore when broke out I was four years old and I was ten years old when the war ended so my memories are quite with it still. The bombing in Birmingham where I lived in Erdington, Birmingham was not good. They used to come over looking for the Dunlop factory because of course they made tyres didn’t they, and Fisher and Ludlows and another factory called Constrictors I think. They made ammunitions. RW: So your home was near the factories was it, Beryl? BF: Well, not near land wise but air wise yes it would be. RW: So what about your parents? BF: What about them? RW: So your mum and your dad were they both at home? BF: Yes. Yes. They both were at home and I’ve got a younger brother. He was born in 1938. December 1938. RW: So why were you not evacuated? BF: Because my mother wouldn’t let me go and live with strangers. RW: Right. BF: Neither of us were evacuated. No. RW: So where you lived was that a dangerous place? BF: Well, the house at the bottom of our garden was bombed as I’ve told you. You know a whistling bomb came down and we could hear it whistling. We were in the shelter in the garden. RW: So was that an Anderson shelter? BF: Yes. And my father said to my mother, ‘This one is for us, mother.’ But it wasn’t. It was the house just across the garden. When we got up the next morning from the shelter the garden was just a big gap. A hole. RW: Goodness me. BF: So we were lucky. We did have an incendiary device drop in our garden in my father's onion patch and as children you think things are quite funny but my father said, ‘It looks as though we’re going to have fried onions.’ RW: So what did your dad do when this bomb, this incendiary bomb fell? BF: He rushed out and he got his spade and he was shovelling soil on to it and patting it down and patting it down and it suddenly went pfft like that. RW: Goodness. BF: It was horrible. RW: And with the Anderson shelter I mean how many times did you have to go in there? BF: Oh, often. Often. RW: So there would be a siren was there in the night? BF: Oh yes. Sirens used to go warning us and of course we’d be in bed so mum and dad would wake us up, ‘Come on.’ All the way down the path into the shelter. Shut the door. I think we had a candle in a holder or did we have a tealight? We might have had a tealight. I can’t remember that. But we were there until the all-clear went. Sometimes we were there all night. RW: Dear. And that must have been hard if it was cold. BF: Oh it was but mum always took a bag down to the shelter with us. She’d always got say a biscuit or if she had time a flask of boiling water or something you know and we got spare blankets. We were always wrapped up well you know. But oh they were, they always had a strange damp smell the shelters. But if it was a quick warning my father used to get me and my brother and put us in the Morrison shelter under the table in the dining room part of the house and shut us in. RW: Gosh. And so where, where would your parents go if — BF: I don’t know. I think they must have gone and stood outside or whatever. I don’t know. RW: So do you know of anybody who got injured or hurt or even killed during these bombing raids? BF: Yes. We had a neighbour, Mr Dorney who had shrapnel go into his arm and he must have been in agony because they couldn’t find anything to put him on so they put him on a ladder and carried him up the Grove to the ambulance. RW: Ok. BF: His arm hanging out sort of thing you know. RW: So — BF: We had a neighbour killed in Burma during the war. They lived next door but one to us. Mr Wells. A nice man. RW: Oh dear. That must have been awful. BF: It was. It was a terrible thing. RW: And what about the people in the house that you said was hit by a bomb close to you. Were they injured. BF: The [unclear] No, they were all in the shelter fortunately. RW: Right. So the Anderson shelter saved their lives then. BF: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. RW: Yeah. Gosh. BF: Yeah. And they had several children if I remember rightly. Yeah. RW: And so what, what was it like to be a child during the war then? Can you remember you know what day to day was like? BF: Not very nice. RW: You went, you went to school didn’t you? BF: I went to school. Yes. I went to Birches Green Infants and Juniors. RW: And you were telling me that you had to carry your gas mask. BF: Oh. If you went without your gas mask you had a row. RW: Oh dear. BF: Yes. They’d stop you on your way into school. ‘Where’s your mask?’ We couldn’t afford to leave that behind. No. And we used to have practices with those. They were horrible things. Yeah. And then — RW: And was — BF: And then during the bombing as well because we weren’t all that far air wise from these three factories Dunlops, Fisher and Ludlows, and Constrictors because of the Luftwaffe coming for us, looking for us, looking for the factories they had these big oil drums up the main roads and they lit them so they had all thick black smoke. [recording interrupted] BF: I think you know — RW: Dear. BF: That was horrible because if you went outside, if you went say I had to run to the shop or something you know you’d come back with black eyes, black nose and black ears from the smoke. RW: Goodness me. Yeah. Horrible. And what about food then? You know, rationing and — BF: Oh ration. RW: How did that affect you? BF: Well, we got by. RW: You were telling me, you were telling me about your father who was ill and he was had to be in a home, a convalescent home. BF: A convalescent home because he’d had a big operation. Yeah. RW: Yes. And you managed to sneak some things to him. BF: Black Market sugar and tea. RW: So tell us about that. How did that happen? BF: I don’t know how mum got it or where she got it from but because my father always loved his cup of tea we used to go on the bus to the convalescent home in Erdington and there was a board loose that dad knew about and he pointed it out to mum. And we used to go on the bus, get off at the convalescent, by the convalescent home, walk across some grass to this loose board and my mum would say, ‘Are you there?’ You know. He’d say, ‘Is that you mother?’ And then push this board across and mum would hand over tea and sugar to him out of her bag. RW: And then I guess he could share it with people in the home. BF: Well, the matron loved him because he used to like to do the tea round. RW: I bet she did. BF: Consequently, when I said I wanted to be a nurse he said, ‘No way is a daughter of mine going to have to work as hard as they do.’ RW: That’s interesting. BF: That was why. Because those were the days when there were matrons and what have you, you know. It — RW: Yeah. BF: The biggest regret of my life but there we are. It’s gone now. RW: So, it’s the eightieth anniversary of VE Day tomorrow Beryl. BF: I know it is. RW: Eighty years. BF: Yeah. RW: So what happened to you on VE Day? Can you remember? BF: We had a street party. They put trestle tables out with white sheets. [recording interrupted] BF: And we had jelly and all sorts of things that we hadn’t had for a long long time. I don’t know where that all came from you know but we had a good old feast and buntings and — RW: Yeah. BF: And as I say Mrs Wells put the flag out with the black bow on it because she’d lost her husband. Very sad. RW: Yeah. BF: I thought that was awful. A nice man. RW: Yeah. So your memories in general of the war were they good memories or bad ones? What would you say? BF: I would say we got through it by the skin of our teeth. I mean, as children we were still able to play outside but you couldn’t stray very far in case the siren went. In fact, I remember on one occasion there was two little boys who lived near us. One of them was the Wells boy and they wanted to go to the park, Rookery Park it was called, on the swings so I said, ‘Oh, come on. I’ll take you.’ So we went up to Rookery Park. We’d just got there on the swings and the siren went. I said, ‘Oh come on. We’d better get home.’ Well, we’d got to walk down the Bromford Lane and Bromford Crescent and as we were walking down we walked all right by the hedge all the way and we met a lady who lived not in our area but near to us and we knew her. She was a [pause] and she said, ‘You’d better get home, Beryl,’ she said, ‘The bombers are about.’ You know. She said, ‘What are you doing out?’ That’s how we had to hurry home. RW: And what did your parents say when you got home? BF: I don’t think, I don’t think I had a row. I don’t remember having a row. Yeah. Because I mean — RW: And was that, I don’t suppose you can remember was that a genuine raid because sometimes the sirens — BF: Oh yes, because we could see the planes. RW: Right. BF: As we were walking along the hedge we could see them going over. Yeah. RW: So it was quite frightening then. BF: Yeah. And you got to know the sound of them as well. You could pick them out. ‘Oh that’s German,’ you know. RW: Really? BF: But yeah, it was horrible. It was horrible thinking back now you know. RW: Yeah. BF: But you get you have to settle for what you’ve got don’t you Ruth, you know. RW: Yeah. Gosh. BF: My mother’s youngest brother was a paratrooper in the war. He’d landed on the Normandy beaches. RW: Gosh. BF: Albert. He was lovely. I loved him. Oh, he could sing. RW: So he survived the war did he? BF: Yes. He did. Yeah. Oh, he could sing like a dream. All my mother’s family could sing. RW: Yeah. BF: My daughter Susan can’t carry a tune. Neither could John. Oh, she growls [laughs] But Myra, she makes you cry when she sings. RW: That’s nice. BF: She’s got a wonderful voice. I’m not switched on am I? No. RW: Well, Beryl, you’ve remembered an awful lot about your wartime experiences and it all sounded really quite difficult and frightening. BF: It was. It was. RW: But thank you very much for talking to us. BF: Oh you’re welcome. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Beryl Fitter Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ruth Williams Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-05-07 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:13:37 Audio Recording Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending revision of OH transcription Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AFitterB250507 Description An account of the resource Beryl Fitter grew up in Birmingham during the war. She recalls the many hours spent in the Anderson or Morrison shelter. She also experienced the Black Market which supplemented the rations. The house across from them was bombed. An incendiary landed in their garden. Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Great Britain England--Birmingham Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Civilian Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julie Williams bombing childhood in wartime home front incendiary device shelter Victory in Europe Day (8 May 1945) https://ibccdigitalarchive.omeka.net/files/original/3040/56382/PLillMS2501.jpg 8ad8bd74fb025b04bbbd8e2e45d34f7f https://ibccdigitalarchive.omeka.net/files/original/3040/56382/ALillMS250423.mp3 81351625b44d8f4bd8e20828408833e3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lill, Maureen Shirley Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Maureen Shirley Lil. The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-04-23 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Lill, MS Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document ML: I’m all yours. AH: This is an interview for the International Bomber Command Centre Archive. The interviewee is Maureen Lill and the interviewer is Anna Hoyles and the interview is taking place in Little Cawthorpe. Could you tell me when and where you were born? ML: I was born in Cleethorpes in 1936 in Harrington Street. Yeah. AH: And what, do you have any memories about the war? ML: Yes. I do because you see I was three when the war started and my father was posted to India. My mother was working so although I had to be at school during the week during the weekends I was put on one of those ghastly double decker buses through to Grimsby to Brighowgate Station where my grandfather met me, took me across to the Market Place and got me on a trolley bus and I went down to Cleethorpes and I spent Saturday and Sunday with my grandparents and two of my cousins. And on the Sunday it was reversed and I came home and my memories of that are being travel sick all the [pause] all the way [laughs] I hated it. I loathed it. And Brighowgate, Brighowgate Bus Station oh God was terrible. Yes. So those were my wartime years. I went to Kidgate School. My father had been moved to Louth in ’39 and for the, what was then the Radio Relay Service. The Radio Relay Service was, had big radios stations and from there you could hire a wireless unit which had the light or the home programmes on it and you paid one and nine pence a week for the, to use this and my father managed that. But he was actually quite a mathematician. He was also very interested in radio. So when he was working for Radio Relay in Cleethorpes which was just before I was born he, that’s why he went there because he was a radio engineer and of course during the war he was sent to India because of his knowledge of radios. AH: So you were living in Louth during the war? ML: Yes. In 1939 I think we must have come there. Yes. And yes, Louth was, the centre part was almost like it is now. But I do remember Moore’s the butcher. There were two Moore’s, the butchers and a Woolworths and Godsmarks and even Renshaw’s and all the old established firms. Yes. So, but, but Louth was, I can’t, [pause] I can remember they bombed. The night they bombed the Malt Kiln and I can remember that. That and I can remember also when I went I went to Kidgate School and when I was five and during that first few, well few weeks I formed a friendship in the kindergarten school of a girl called Mary Janes and she’d only been at school four or five weeks and the Germans bombed the house. And her sister was Margaret Ottoway who was the Mayor of Louth and it was Margaret’s sister Mary that was at school with me and was killed within weeks of [pause] Yeah, of [pause] So I remember that and the strange thing is I can remember being taken to see the house which now you just think you wouldn’t inflict that on a child would you? But I did. But I was, and at school, Kidgate School I had a wonderful headmaster called Mr Latter. He was an older because by that time all the younger teachers, male teachers had been sent to fight in the war and the older ones had come back and there was this marvellous gentleman called Percy Latter and he was headmaster of Kidgate School when I was there and he was absolutely wonderful. My first teacher was a Miss Giddings who married Dawson the accountant in Louth. Yes. So those are my. I can remember sirens. I can’t remember much else about the war because you see I was only three when it started. AH: Do you remember how you felt when you saw the bombed house? ML: No. It wouldn’t have meant anything to a five year old would it? You just, it was, yeah and my, I suppose my mother was very good. She didn’t flap about or, and so I didn’t. But I can remember I wasn’t even told that Mary had been killed. Just that she wouldn’t be at school. [recording interrupted] ML: So that was it. Every day I went. Left. I lived in Upgate and I walked across the old pit, down the side of the cattle market, along Newmarket, down Cinder Lane to Kidgate School and you couldn’t do that now with a six year old could you? No. But I did and that was my life and then so that was Monday to Friday. Saturday morning I was put on this bus through to Grimsby and Sunday I came back and Monday it started all over again. But there was nothing and I did oh something and I haven’t said this. I remembered while I was there there was, and it’s where, oh it’s not Wilkos anymore is it? It’s got to be, what’s the new — AH: I think it’s called B&M. ML: Yes. Where that is used to be a hotel and there was an archway where in the old days all they, they used to take all the traps and carriages and horses and things through there and I was taken to dance classes by Miss Hawley and Miss Snell and they, and taught me tap dancing. And I didn’t want to tap dance. I would rather have done ballet. But tap dancing now I would give my back teeth to do some tap dancing. But yes. Miss Hawley and Miss Snell and they were in those, the back region of the hotel. What is it when you are teetotal? AH: Temperance. ML: Temperance Hotel. It was a Temperance Hotel which is now next door to — [recording interrupted] ML: Yeah. So that was, yes Miss Hawley I’d forgotten about that Mike. I didn’t tell you about Miss Hawle] and Miss Snell. And I can still do the dance, ‘Wilhemina is plump and round.’ I can still do the whole thing. AH: And did you enjoy it even though you would rather have done ballet? ML: Yes. Yes. Yes, and now God I wish I could do. I love tap dancing. Those tap dance routines in the shows and things are wonderful aren’t they? Do you tap dance Mike? [pause] AH: You said your headmaster was wonderful. ML: Yes. AH: How was, in what way was he wonderful? ML: He was very strict. Mind you all the teachers were. You didn’t, you didn’t play about. You had respect for them and you [pause] but he was interested in you. He would meet you in the corridors and, ‘How are you doing?’ And, and one of the things that happened in those days I was one of the first people to take the Eleven-plus. What was it called then? The [pause] what was it called? Just the Eleven-plus wasn’t it? And if you passed you see you had to then go to King Edward for an interview to see which form they would put you in and I’d taken my Eleven-plus and passed it and I can remember being in one of those corridors of Kidgate School and Mr Latter came down and said, ‘Now, Maureen, well done. You’ve got through to King Edward. Now, what are you going to tell them you want to do when you leave school?’ So I said, ‘I’d like to be a model.’ And I can remember the intake of breath because model had a total different meaning I suppose in those days. So he said, ‘What do you think a model does?’ So I explained what I thought and he said, ‘Well, I would suggest that you don’t tell them you want to be a model. You tell them you want to be a mannequin.’ Which is, you know. So that that was fine and he was a caring man. He did care for his pupils. So I went to my interview at King Edward and I walked into the school hall and there was all the school governors sat down there including and the headmistress Miss Figgis was her name. As I got there the very kind gentleman on the end said to me, ‘And what would you like to do when you leave school, Maureen?’ So I said, ‘I want to be a mannequin.’ Remembering what Mr Latter had said and so he said, ‘Right. Do you know what a mannequin does?’ ‘Oh yes.’ ‘Would you like to show me?’ Now, many years I did belong to Playgoers. I suppose it was the actress in me so I walked up and down the school hall much to Miss Figgis’ the headmistress’s disgust and came back and he said, ‘Thank you. That’s fine.’ And I have to tell you I married that man’s son many years later [laughs] He was one of the school governors. Lawrence. Yeah. Yeah. AH: Gosh how amazing. ML: Yeah. Yes, it was good. So, and I was there. I’m not a sporty person. I hated hockey because it was rough. Yeah. I quite liked tennis and I quite liked netball but I didn’t like the, hated hockey. Yes. So but we had some superb teachers there but Miss Figgis was, Miss Figgis was there at King Edward the same time as Hedley Warr was at the boy’s school and they were both brilliant. Miss Figgis was a Latin scholar. A brilliant, she was very clever but she should never, no I mustn’t say this but she was in charge of teenage girls. Yes. So it was. But yes I stayed there until I left. AH: And what did you do after you left? ML: I, first of all I was wanted to teach blind children and I went to Cheltenham and it was the time, unhappy experiences with the GIs and things down there and I in less than a year I came back. And I was asked if I’d like to go into Lloyds Bank and I went into Lloyds Bank where I stayed until I got married and had children. AH: And when did you get married? ML: ’58. 1958. Yes. AH: And going back to the war do you remember anything about the food and rationing? ML: Not really. You see, I was three when it started so I never, I know when my father came back I went through his kit bag to see if there was a banana because I thought I might like a banana. And there wasn’t one there so I was disappointed. No. There wasn’t. You went down on a Saturday or during the week and everything was rationed but I suppose it was my life. I’d never known any difference. Yeah. AH: Do you remember when it stopped? Things stopped being rationed. ML: Not really. I mean I’m not a sweet tooth so sweets didn’t. But I understand sweets didn’t come off the ration until ’47, ’48. They were later wasn’t it? Yeah. Yes. No, I can’t. I can’t remember. There was Frank Moore, the butcher which is where, I don’t know what the shop is now in Mercer Row. But there were Toplis’s and yeah there were all the old shops. Godsmarks, Toplis’s, Evan Renshaw’s. Yeah. AH: And was your father away for the whole war? ML: He came back in 1946. Yes and so I was, didn’t see him for five years. AH: And do you remember what it was like when he came back? How you felt? ML: Well, I suppose there was euphoric wasn’t it? It would be the morning he arrived back but he had malaria. He’d got malaria and so he was ill for quite a while. But then he went back to Radio Relay which then became Radio Rentals in Louth and life just, no life just I suppose if I say anything to my parents it’s thank you for letting it just be normal. I do remember being told after the war that the reason St James wasn’t hit was that the German pilots could use it as a beacon to line up for Grimsby and Hull docks. So Louth spire wasn’t [pause] — AH: And what did your mother do during the war? ML: She worked for Eric [Vanplugh?] at Evan Renshaw’s. Yes. Yes. She was there a long time. Yeah. AH: And what other connection do you have with the Royal Oak? The pub. ML: I married the son of the owners. Yes. AH: And where did you meet him? ML: At Louth Playgoers. There was, because while I was in Lloyds Bank I was introduced to Louth Playgoers by other members of the staff there and I went there and I did a read through one night of a play. There was a gentleman who was the clerk to the Rural District Council in Cannon Street, Gilbert Pitt who lived in St Mary’s Lane and he used to direct/produce for our Playgoers and he did a play and I went to his house one night for a read through and John was there. John was playing the part of a very bewhiskered very elderly old admiral and I was playing the young girl who had written a book. And so and it was raining on the way out and he said did I want a lift home and I, yeah and we were great friends for a long time. Yes. And because I was sort of attached to somebody else at that point but then it got more serious and yeah I married him two years later. My mother-in-law Winnie at the pub was wonderful because I used to go over there regularly obviously and she was, I adored her. AH: And when did your parents in law come to the pub? ML: 1937. LJ had come to visit to look at a fireplace in Burnside, a big house there and to, as an example of one he wished to put in his aunt’s house in Louth who had been, it had been a lightning bolt had blown it out and he came and had a look at this fireplace in Burnside. And afterwards he went over to the pub and the landlord there said, told him that he was leaving. He had given in his notice. So LJ which we called him got in his car, went over to Alford to Colonel Winch, Soulby, Sons and Winch and said, ‘I understand the pub is coming up. I’d like to be considered.’ You see. And Colonel Winch said, ‘Well, I’ve only just got the letter. How did you know?’ And he said well the landlord had told him. So he went. He came over and the pub was, well Mike knows there was it was nothing like it is today and they, my mother-in-law they were very, well she was very artistic like her granddaughter and they did do the house up so, and it got quite a reputation. And LJ just used the pub then as, well during that time he was in 1937 he was mayor two years running. Yes. Yeah. He was. But then he took over and it became his, it was his life. It was his. Yeah. He had some very interesting clients. The doctors, the farmers, the vets they were all. Yeah. They were local. Very local but he expected a certain amount of decorum. Nobody would have been allowed in without a shirt at all or shorts. They had to be properly dressed and, yeah. AH: Have you, sorry? ML: I was quite scared of him actually. Now, now I know. Now, I’ve done research into his life I understand why he was. But he was a very clever man. Yeah. AH: And where did he come from originally? ML: He was born in Louth. Yes. The family are Louth people. Yes. And my mother-in-law was from Nottingham. AH: And what did he, what did he do in the First World War? ML: Who? AH: Your father-in-law. ML: Oh, that was, that’s the guy who was shot and oh sorry. Yes, I didn’t tell you did I? He was, he and his brother enlisted on the first day of the war and he was sent out to the Dardanelles where he got dysentery and he was very seriously ill there and took him quite a long time I think to recover. From hospital ship back to hospital and then he was sent back to England. And then he recovered from that and was sent back to France to a village called Le Boeuf. And in Le Boeuf he took his men over the top and he was shot through the stomach and we all, well not me I wasn’t there but they thought he had died but the French had picked him up and taken him to a station and he recovered. Came back to England to recuperate and married my mother-in-law in Nottingham and then went back and then he was gassed. So he came back and I don’t, he eventually finished up in Humberston. He was a commanding officer in Humberston in one of the farms there and he helped the civilians and things there before he came back into Louth to the shop. Lill’s of Louth. That was his father’s shop. His father Jimmy Lill who is, what’s the shop now? It’s got, “Lill’s of Louth,” on the baker’s shop opposite Stevensons, the greengrocers. AH: Cooplands. ML: Cooplands. Yes. If you look in there it’s got, “Lill’s of Louth,” and that was Jimmy Lill was LJ’s father who, yeah. AH: And had he ever ran a pub before? ML: No. No. AH: Do you know why they decided to? ML: I have no idea. I suppose, as I say I was [pause] he was quite a big man, an imposing man. No. I never. I suppose it was during those days you took what was offered. Yeah. AH: And what made you feel afraid of him? ML: He was not a communicative person with young people. But he, he was a great wag with his friends and things and there are some quite wild stories. Well, not wild stories but yeah he, he had great, Dr Russell who was a great friend and Mr Bill Wright, a farmer and Barry Stocks the vet. They were all big big mates. Big friends. And I can remember at one point and I was married there was a vicar of Althorp, the reverend and he had a big black dog called Buddy who used to come to the pub every night and he used to come down from, Legby he used to come Legbourne way and get to the end of the road here and let Buddy out and then race Buddy along to see who could get to the pub first. Yes. Reverend Austin Lee. That’s right. His name was. Yeah. And Buddy. Yeah. AH: And was your mother-in-law a different sort of person? ML: Very artistic. Very sociable. Yeah. I mean the pub was, she was the one who did the flowers. There were always flower arrangements there and yes she was a wonderful person. A lovely person. Yeah. We call this one little Winnie here. AH: And what happened at the Royal Oak during the war? ML: Well, the pilots from Manby could, Manby was close enough to the pub for the pilots and the bombers and the aimers and navigators whatever they would walk across the field picking mushrooms as they came, bring them to John’s mother who used to cook them for them. But during the war they, the pilots spent a lot of time, they used it almost as their clubhouse and yeah they were the pilots. They didn’t know. They’d come here for a drink because they didn’t know whether they would even be here the next day and they went out. Am I allowed to [pause] refill bottles outside and took those refill bottles and bombed Germany with them the next day. Yes. So they did. But the stories and this is when they were wonderful. They made a lot of friends. This guy who was, John always reckoned he was a natural pilot. His name was Scrymgeour-Wedderburn and his family, he was a laird up in Scotland and he used to come and visit us many years later when John and I were here and he brought his friend who was Sandy Gregg whose son became a cricket captain. Was it England or Australia? England was it? Yeah. But they were. Yes. So, and the number of people. Yes and we’ve had, I think my mother-in-law was a very sociable person but we all are. We like parties. We like, we like family get togethers. AH: And this man Scrimshaw what was he doing during the war? ML: Well, he was a pilot, a navigator I don’t know what he was. I think they were part of the time stationed at Ludford but John, my husband always told me that Scrym was actually a natural pilot. He could get in any plane and just fly it because it was instinctive. Yeah. But he was a big man, yes. We’ve got photographs. I think I’ve shown [pause] yeah we’ve had and I was lucky enough that they would let these, the friendships carried on afterwards yes. But Scrym was certainly a pilot. I don’t know whether he was a pilot, navigator. I think he was a pilot. MC: Just to, just to say that he was actually a flight lieutenant and he was a — ML: Pilot. MC: A crew leader. Yeah. ML: A crew. MC: He had a crew of eight in many of his missions over to Germany. [recording paused] MC: A crew of seven generally speaking but they put eight, eight in the Lancasters from stations in this area because they wanted the extra crew person on board who could speak German. Just in case. But Scrymgeour-Wedderburn made a name for himself as an outlandish character but as Maureen said was an absolutely natural leader of men and held no fear of anything. Hugely courageous and was compared to one of his ancestors from around the twelfth century who apparently once seized the banner of one of the Scottish kings and marched across the River Spey with it in his [laughs] in his arms. And they were said by his relatives that Scrymgeour-Wedderburn was exactly like that ancestor and had that sort of courage. AH: And did he throw a party? ML: If you pardon me Mike knows about this because this came from — MC: Not that I was there but at the end of one, maybe his second tour which again was unusual because not many people lasted as long as that he had a massive, the fact that people in his crew wrote about this legendary party that he had which was at the [unclear] and he only had it for the crew of eight and various other people in there. And he apparently footed the bill for the whole party and that made a huge name for himself in the pub itself because of that and the pilots and the crew who came to the pub — ML: Adored him. MC: Came from five or six stations, other stations around like Binbrook and Grimsby and Waltham — ML: He was a legend wasn’t he? MC: And Kelstern and those sort of stations because the pub became legendary as almost a second base for the Air Force. AH: What do you think was special about the pub? ML: Now? AH: Then. ML: In those days? AH: Yes. ML: In those days I think a lot was to do with my mother-in-law who was very, a very social person and I think the boys could come here, could relax and just let their hair down as I say. They didn’t know whether they would even be back the next day so but I think it was almost like a home to them and they, they loved it. Yeah. AH: And they came back some of them like Scrym after the war. ML: Oh, yes. Scrym. Yes. He used to come. They used to hold Memorial Services at Ludford and Scrym would come and stay with Sandy Gregg and there was another guy. I can’t remember who he was but they used to come and stay. They kept, all kept in touch for years. Yes. AH: How long did your parents-in-law have the pub? ML: Until, well when my father-in-law died my mother-in-law kept it on for a while until she retired. Yes. And then it was they sold it on. Yeah. AH: And your, how old was your husband during that time? ML: Well, John was born in ’29 so during the war you see he would be ten and he was, because his parents considered a pub was not the ideal growing up station for a young boy he became a weekly boarder at King Edward and was there Monday to Friday and then came home Saturday Sunday. But he had to walk to school and walk back again. Yes. So, he was at King Edward all that time. AH: How did he feel about that arrangement? ML: He didn’t like it [laughs] No. He was, but there again I don’t know whether it happens nowadays but in those days he kept in touch with a lot of his friends at school. Boarding school is a great bringer together isn’t it really? So yeah. AH: And did he enjoy being at the pub during the weekends? ML: Well, he used to bring some friends back at the weekends and they would go out. They would fish other people’s fish and scrump apples and do all those sort of things and then [pause] Yeah. So he, yes he had many happy memories. Yeah. AH: How did he, did he have any memories about the pilots? ML: Oh Scrimgeour. He just, he adored Scrym and would go with Scrym up to Scotland. Yes. He was a figure figure for John. He loved Scrym to bits. Yes. And John Moody was another guy who was in Louth but he was, I won’t go into gory but he was either in [pause] he was part of the Army and I know he had some rather nasty experiences in Germany so, but John yes. He, John had idols I suppose. Scrym was certainly one and John Moody was one. Yeah. AH: And John Moody? Did he? He stayed in Louth? ML: No. He met a tragic end. I won’t go into that. Yes. So it was. But no, I think the men that my husband admired I would admire. We all would have admired. They were all brave. Yeah. Yes. So, and I mean now I sort of I look at my father and people say well during Covid, ‘I didn’t see my father for six months.’ I didn’t see my father for five years but it didn’t stop me loving him. And I also, before he went he was reading me “Alice in Wonderland” before he went and I wouldn’t let anybody read it to me until he came back and then we finished it. AH: Did it feel the same when he came back? Was it — ML: Life just [pause] it just, I suppose at that time you of life you had to accept life as it was. There was nothing you could do about it. So daddy was back. He was back at work. He was reading me my books and yeah life went back to normal or as normal as life could be. I think we were lucky we lived in Louth and I was lucky I met my husband and came to Cawthorpe so, where I’ve been very happy now for sixty years. Sixty. That was ’58. Oh, sixty-seven years. Good heavens. Sixty-seven years since I was married. Yeah. AH: Have you always lived here? ML: No. We lived in the small house at the bottom and then we moved into the bigger house and then John’s mother when she was ill and left the pub and we came up here to, we moved. Extended all the house and moved in to look after her until she, yeah. AH: Do you remember anything else they talked about? About the pub during the war. ML: Well, I think I’ve told you about the bottles and the walnut tree. AH: Oh, you didn’t mention the walnut tree. ML: Oh, well the outside. Men. Men competing up the walnut tree. Yes. So, yes they were, I mean the pub is nothing now like it was then and another thing that John said that when he first went there, so he would only be about 1937 so he would be eight and he used to, you see there were in those days you didn’t have to have proper toilets or anything. So ladies, the men used to go outside but the ladies were allowed to use Winnie and LJ’s toilets upstairs. So John hit on the idea if he his bedroom door was bang opposite the bathroom door and so he used to sit up there and hold his hand out for the pennies for the ladies going into the toilets [laughs] Life was very different. MC: Anna, sorry can I mention something to trigger Maureen’s memory? Tell her about the bloke, the guy, the squadron leader, whoever he was who had the incredibly high tastes. ML: Yes. The wing commander. That’s right. At Manby you see during the war if someone, you were told you had to give board and lodging to somebody you had to do it and of course because Winnie had spare rooms she was expected or told to have any people that were visitors to Manby. And there was one wing commander who was foisted, was lived with, he brought his wife one weekend but he insisted that every day his bed linen would be totally fresh. Yeah. So my mother-in-law used to take the sheets off, fold them and put them through the mangle and put them straight back on [laughs] and the guy still thought he’d got fresh bed linen every day. Yes. Yes. So people were very [pause] they did sort of yeah. I’d forgotten that Mike. Yeah. Yeah. So and — [recording interrupted] ML: And she always, there was always fresh flower arrangements but she wouldn’t do them as we. She’d grow rhubarb but she’d make rhubarb leaves into flower arrangements and things. So I suppose during the war it was as close to a home as any of the pilots or navigators or what would they be then? Pilots, navigators, bombers, engineers. There must have been engineers mustn’t there? Yeah. I’m sure I’ve exhausted it now haven’t I Mike? AH: And there was a Visitor’s Book. ML: Yes. The Visitor’s Book. When my mother-in-law died I was going through documents and photographs and I found this book and I didn’t pay too much attention. I was told by my mother-in-law that the Prince of Denmark or somewhere had once signed it. I don’t know whether we ever found that but she, I found this book and I [pause] she, I think she held great store by it because the book actually contained the signatures of the pilots who were there and their comments. And it’s hard to explain but the comments are very witty and I mean these pilots were not only English but they were Australian, New Zealand, Canadian, American, Polish. They were from all over the place and the comments and these men who didn’t even know whether they would be alive the next day were very very real. And I didn’t pay too much attention and then we, my daughter she knew how much it meant to me and she told Mike that I’d got this thing and he very kindly came and had a look at it and it was not in a very good state at that point but he had it taken to Grimsby to a lady who very beautifully stuck it back together again. It was so it could be, it could be read and that is the comments in that book are just unbelievable and very, it’s very moving a lot of them. They were trying to be witty and funny and, but it’s they are very very moving and I just wonder if any of their families anywhere [pause] it’s a shame they can’t come and celebrate VE Day isn’t it? AH: Is there anything else you’d like to add? ML: No. I think I’ve told you. I’ve bored you enough with that sort of. Mike. MC: Oh no. Only that it is self-evident from the comments in the book, in the log, visitors log that the pilots although they were being light-hearted, frivolous almost it was clearly a cover for high tension and they regarded the pub I’m sure and LJ and Winifred as family. ML: Yes. MC: And almost as parents in some ways because they were very young and it was a way for them to just for even if it was just for a few hours to release the pressure and some of those comments you know come across in that way. They were having a whale of a time and they could forget just for an hour or two. AH: Yes. Well, thank you very much. ML: You are very very welcome. I feel, I don’t know how I feel about this book. I feel very [pause] I don’t even know what the word is. That it’s there and it does — MC: It’s part of you. ML: Yes. I suppose it is part of me now and it was but the fact it lay hidden for all those years and it is very moving. It’s, as Mike said the comments are witty and, but when you sit back and read them it’s very moving. Very moving indeed, yeah and it makes me probably realise how much they gave. Yes. I feel very proud to sort of have the book. Yeah. Very proud indeed. AH: Thank you. [recording interrupted] AH: This interview was held on the 23rd of April 2025. Also present were Mike Cartwright, a friend and Pip Maloy, Maureen’s daughter. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Maureen Shirley Lill Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Anna Hoyles Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-04-23 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:45:04 Audio Recording Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ALillMS250423 PLillMS2501 Description An account of the resource Maureen Lill grew up in Louth during the war. She recalls the one night when a bomb destroyed the house of her school friend. Her father was in the Army and she didn’t see him for the duration of the war after he was called up. He had begun to read aloud to her Alice in Wonderland and she refused to allow anyone but him to read it to her although that meant waiting until the end of the war. As an adult she married the son of the owners of the local pub, the Royal Oak which had been a popular meeting place for RAF personnel during the war. She inherited the Guest Book from the pub which had been signed by aircrew based at nearby RAF Manby and RAF Ludford Magna. Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Great Britain England--Lincolnshire England--Louth Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Civilian Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julie Williams Carolyn Emery Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1937 1939 1946 bombing childhood in wartime home front RAF Ludford Magna RAF Manby https://ibccdigitalarchive.omeka.net/files/original/3039/56381/AEdwardsPB250206.mp3 925d4fd69a5a60dc50742355053f4115 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Edwards, Peter Brian Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Peter Brian Edwards (b. 1934, Royal Air Force). He trained at Halton and served as an armourer at St Eval, Northern Ireland and Malta. The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-02-06 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Edwards, PB Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document MC: This interview is being conducted on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewee is Ted Edwards. The interviewer is Mike Connock and the interview is taking place at [redacted] in Lincoln. Okay, Ted, thank you for agreeing to the interview. PE: My pleasure. MC: Just, just start off just tell me when and where you were born. When and where you were born. PE: When? MC: When and where you were born. PE: I was, I was born in 1934 at the RAF hospital adjacent to RAF Halton. My father at that time I think was working, he was stationed in the local Air Force station nearby so when my mother was due she went to the Air Force Hospital associated with Halton. MC: So what did your father do? What was his trade? PE: My father was in arguably the first entry. There’s always a bit of an argument. MC: This was the apprentices. PE: As an apprentice. MC: Yes. PE: Yes. In the, he was in the first entry. MC: When was that? PE: And he was — MC: Sorry. PE: He was, I think he was a fitter rigger or something. MC: Okay. Yes. PE: That was at the time when they had wing warping and things of that nature so so but you know the aeroplanes were getting a bit more technical and so they needed a Number One School of Technical Training to train people to be able to service the Royal Air Force aircraft as they were getting more complex. So that’s why I think Halton became an important place for the Air Force you know in order to train people to service them. MC: So he was still there when you were born. Even though he joined, when did he join? Nineteen — PE: Well, that was in 1934 when I was born and he was at Henlow. MC: Oh, I see. He wasn’t at Halton. PE: He, he not, not then but when he, when because you know I mean I was born sometime after he joined the Air Force you know. MC: Yes. Yes I appreciate that. Yeah. PE: Yeah. MC: Yeah. So you were, so what, tell me and so obviously can you remember much about life before the war? Between being born, you were born in ’34 so up until the war in ’39 where did you live and what did you do? PE: We were, during the war we were to begin with at Wittering. MC: Was that during the war? What about before the war? I mean you were very young so I don’t expect you to be, I mean at the outbreak of war you’d be five. PE: Yeah. Yes. MC: So you probably wouldn’t remember much. PE: So I don’t. I don’t know much about, about that. MC: Okay. So during the war you were at Wittering you say. PE: During the war for a short while my father was at Wittering. He was the STO at Wittering. MC: Senior Technical Officer. PE: And we lived at a place called Thornhaugh. If you go past the Stamford roundabout and carry on and then Wittering is on, the camp is on the right. If you carry on the, on the A1 just a few yards further on. There’s a sign which says Thornhaugh. T H O R N H A U G H or something. But that’s, that’s where, that’s where we lived. MC: Oh right. PE: And we lived there but then we lived actually because the peritrack at the station was so, was so near to the farm, farm buildings that we lived in that we had to move because Jerry was beginning to bomb around that neck of the woods you know. So we, we moved to Lancashire. To Lytham St Annes. MC: Why? Any reason for Lancashire? Any reason for Lancashire? PE: Only to get out of the, you know out of the bombing business. MC: But your father stayed at Wittering. PE: Oh yes. Yes. MC: So, I mean obviously he was Senior Technical Officer. Do you know how and when he was commissioned? PE: Yes. I do. I do know. Funnily enough if I looked around here I might be able to find — MC: Don’t worry. [pause] PE: Yeah. MC: Yeah, so, so you moved to Lytham. PE: Yes. My father didn’t obviously — MC: No, he stayed at Wittering. PE: He stayed at Wittering. Yeah. MC: Yeah. Yeah. PE: And so we moved to Lytham or as they say Lytham St Annes but you actually had Lytham and then Ansdell and then St Annes and then Squires Gate and then Blackpool so it’s a pretty, it’s a pretty safe area anyway. MC: Yeah. Yes. PE: And so that’s where I moved to and actually until such time as I joined the Royal Air Force. MC: So what was life like at Lytham St Annes for you? PE: Well — MC: And your mother. PE: I was a sort of, you know I was about seven. Seven years, seven or eight years old to begin with so and it was, it was [pause] it was really quite atypical really because I’m really, remember I’m Captain Tom and his era when he was a lad and it was exactly the same as mine. You know everyone kept chickens and you know and you had bran. You could have certain sorts of bran and you lost certain food points on your ration book if you had bran because then, because you were feeding chickens so you know it was sort of it was quite interesting in, in, you know in living in a wartime when that area although it’s supposed to be a safe area the Americans they moved in there. So that we had a lot of American bases just down the road from us. MC: Did you have much to do with the Americans? PE: Yes, because my mother she, she got to know quite a few of them who, who and this is what I’m going to tell you now is really quite astonishing but she got to know because the posh pub in Lytham was where the American officers used to, used to, you know have a drink with the locals, that sort of thing or with themselves and my, my mother got quite friendly with one of the, with one of the commanding officers because he had site this, site that. Various sites where these, where the Americans were and they had the sort of, the sort of command structures that you would expect in any and so that my, our house, 15 Preston Road which was coming into Lytham, after that you got Warton and then you’d got all these American sites and our place became very popular with the Americans and the VAD nurses and so on. And one of the rather odd things that happened during that time and I mean they used to call our place, site Site 18 or something. In other words [laughs] you know I’m not sure you know what reputation my mother probably had in all this but what did happen was that you had an American chap that came over. A big famous band leader and all the rest of it. You’ll know what I’m talking about because he came over here and then he came over in order to then head up a group of of entertainers, top flight entertainers to to entertain the American soldiers that were there and his name has just gone out of my head at the moment but you, it’s known that everybody will know because he was a [pause] he was somebody that was in all the films you know. He was, he was a [pause] and he was coming over and the Americans wanted him to have a good rest and he stayed at our place overnight. This [laughs] this whatever his name was. Whatever. I mean he was. He was from the top flight. MC: Would that be Glenn Miller? PE: Yes. Yeah. I’ve obviously told you about that before. Anyway, so so we did very well in the war there because we used to get American food, American rations, all sorts of things. My father was nowhere. He was, you know he was down in that neck of the woods that I’ve just mentioned where he was stationed. MC: Yeah. PE: And then, then but he was posted into the Far East. MC: Oh right. PE: When the, when the war with Europe was finished he got an immediate posting out to [pause] you know to the Far East. So that’s where he then went. So I didn’t see my father hardly at all in my lifetime. MC: No. PE: But — MC: So, I mean did you have any friends in Lytham? People you used to associate with as a youngster. PE: Well, yes. I was very much, I was I was a Lancashire lad you know. We had gangs you know as as well they did in those days. They had gangs you know. I belonged, I belonged to the Marsh Gang but the gang that was always threatening us was the Mornington Road Gang and it was like, it was a battle zone. It really was. It was. You know, you didn’t mix. You know it’s amazing actually that it happened like that but that’s how it, that’s how it was and that I mean I’m grateful to my father because he obviously paid to send me and my brother to Grammar School. MC: So which school did you go to? PE: King Edward the VII Grammar School which is between Lytham and St Anne’s. A good school. The school song was in Latin so I won’t sing any of it to you but I’m sure I still remember it you know. Yeah. So my mother had to, they got divorced. MC: Oh, did they? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. PE: And my father and my mother got divorced at the end of the war and so she, she looked after us kids pretty well really considering that she was on her own in that sense and the fact she was also the unofficial station commander of, of site whatever it was which was our house, 15 Preston Road [laughs] I’m not quite sure what reputation she had in, with the locals but it didn’t matter. You know, you make the best of what you’ve got and we used to have all sorts of good food. Unbelievably good food because it didn’t come, it came from the Americans. The American bases. Yeah. So that was a funny, a funny upbringing really. MC: So — PE: But my father was an apprentice. MC: Yes. PE: And my brother who was about four or five years older than I he was an apprentice and then I was an apprentice. MC: So you became an apprentice. That was straight from school then. PE: Yes. Well, it was but in fact because my, because we were so hard up that I more or less played wag for you know sort of I didn’t go to school. I got a job peeling potatoes. Eyeing potatoes for, for Blackpool. For you know. For the [pause] there was a chap I can’t think of his name now but he was always regarded as the number one cook that ran, that ran all the fish and chip shops in Blackpool and I spent well months, literally months eyeing potatoes and chipping them in in dustbins or, well they looked like dustbins. I think they were and, but you know brand new dustbins you know and they were because he had a whole row of fish and chip shops all on the Golden Mile at Blackpool. So that’s where I spent quite a lot of my ill spent youth I’m afraid was there. MC: So, so that, you were there. So you, so you joined the Royal Air Force then. PE: Yes. MC: As an apprentice. PE: It was, I think it was just accepted actually. That’s what happened. My, my brother had joined the Air Force. Well, joined the apprentices when it was his, when it was his time and, and I followed suit. It was sort of, it was sort of accepted. MC: Family tradition. PE: Yes. It was. Yes. Yeah. So, so I joined the apprentices. My father was at Halton too and he was — MC: What made him join? PE: No he — MC: No. PE: He could have been in the first entry. MC: Yes, you said. PE: There’s some doubt about people argue about who was in the first entry or was it because they split a little bit as to exactly where the Number One School Of Technical Training was going to be but that was quite at the very beginning of when, of you know this was going back again to when my father joined as a boy. I’m going to turn that. Oh, if you could just pull that. Pull that back. MC: So yes, your father joined in 1924 you say. PE: I’m not sure the date. MC: Oh, I thought you said 1924. Yeah. So when you got to Halton how did you get selected for your trade? What was, what trade did you do? PE: Well, it was childish really. I didn’t but there was one which was armament and it sounded exciting you know and I thought oh well that that’s good so I [pause] my first choice was armament. Most, most lads when they went there they had the advice of their fathers mainly because their father would be more attuned with what is appropriate. Most, most went for engine as engine fitters or airframe but I thought guns and bayonets and swords it’s exciting. So I went armament and I got armament. So I was a plumber as you would, as you would appreciate you know. MC: So how long were you at Halton then for that apprenticeship? PE: I think it was about three years. MC: Three years. Yes. PE: Yeah. MC: So when you, when you finished at Halton what rank were you? PE: When I, it was during in the middle of my period at Halton the new improved and different trade test parameters came into being and one of those was the pass mark. Whereas before I think it was, it was something like forty percent or something all of a sudden it had to be at least fifty percent. Well, many of us I mean I was already had gone in the first year and in the end of the first year you would then do a period down on the airfield and then you’d get you know you would do all prop swinging and all sorts of things down on the airfield and then you’d do, you’d have an exam down there and you were given a mark. Well, then if you were okay you know, just about okay all around you know you would, you would get, God willing and a fair wind you’d probably get about fifty. Fifty percent. That would, you know. Well, that’s not, that wasn’t a pass mark for the new trade test. I think it was sixty. Well, consequently loads of people including myself loads of people we all had to do it all again. MC: Oh right. PE: Because, because we, the new, the new pass rate meant that we’d all failed and it surprised me that they didn’t come and make some accommodation for that because if you were okay, you kept you nose clean and you sort of you know you were with the mainstream then you would get the basic pass mark. Well, all of a sudden that wasn’t the pass mark anymore. It was a fail. So consequently made, and I did an extra [pause] I forget now whether it was one or two years because my oppo he, he had gone down two entries and we were all going down because because our pass marks were not big enough and so when it came they said, ‘Oh, you’ll have to go down.’ And I said, I did a bit of a [pause] I made of a [laughs] I said, ‘Well, I think I ought to make a really good start rather than one step back. I think two steps back and then I could make a strong step forward.’ Good. And this zobbit as we used to call them, this zobbit said, ‘Jolly good, apprentice. I agree with that. Yes.’ So I went down two entries only because my mate was down two entries you know. So I did an extra year because of that business you know. MC: So when did you leave Halton? PE: Well, I was there from 1950 to probably ’54. MC: But what was your first posting then? PE: St Eval. MC: Oh right. PE: I hesitated because what happens there at Halton is that when an entry gets it’s marching orders to go when you finished you walked around with your, where you’re being posted to because you could, you could have, you could perhaps want to be, go somewhere and the one that you pinned on your back someone would, so there was a lot of swapping around and they were very accommodating and so that, so that we all for about two or three days swapped you know with, we would have our names on a bit of card, slap it on the back and then someone would say, ‘Oh you’re going to [pause] well I want to go so. Oh, St Eval. Where’s that?’ ‘Cornwall.’ ‘Oh, that sounds okay. Yeah. I’ll swap you.’ You know, and that’s how it went. So there was a lot of horse trading going on for about the last three or four days before it then settled down and that was, that happened every, every time an entry came up to go that happened. MC: So, St Eval. Is that onto a squadron? PE: When I started they already had a job for me in ASF. MC: Air Safety Flight. Yeah. PE: What they wanted was because it was planned servicing and the armourers were always getting in the way because the turret is slap in the middle of the walkway through a Shackleton. So that the armourers were always in the way and what they wanted to do was to build a turret from bits. From spare bits and then the next aircraft that came in whipped this turret out, put the new turret in and then do what had to be done. MC: From the old turret. PE: In the bay and not getting in everyone’s [laughs] and so that’s why. The armament officer told me this. That’s why they put in a request for a fitter armourer from Halton and that was my first job was to build a turret out of boxes [laughs] whole stand of boxes you know and but it was, it was okay. It was interesting. MC: So how long were you at St Eval? PE: I’ll take a bit of a stab on it. Probably about [pause] certainly two years. MC: Did you fly at all during that time? PE: Yes. I mean I went to South America from 228 Squadron which were, which [pause] there was, I think there were four squadrons because it’s a big airfield down at St Eval and anyway I was from, from this job that I was went out in the hangar to build a turret. As that was finishing I was assigned to, I think 228 Squadron with Shackletons of course and that was how I managed very lucky to for because I was the NCO in charge of armament, end of on 228 Squadron. And so I was detailed to go on this South American trip. So I went from, from 228 Squadron. MC: How did you get to South America? What route did you take? What route did you take? PE: Gibraltar. Gibraltar. End of Spain. Is that Gib? MC: Gibraltar, yeah. PE: Gib. Yeah. Except that because we were so overloaded because we you know you had to carry not only your spares but if things got [pause] we were carrying spare oleos and spare big bits you know. MC: Yeah. PE: Because once you were in South America you know if a bit goes for a ball of chalk you’ve lost an aeroplane until you go and so we, so the bomb bays were absolutely crammed with stuff and and so that when we were supposed to land at Gib. But there was a crosswind and because of the weight our aircraft were very much overweight we carried on a bit further down and there’s a French Naval Air Station there. So we lobbed in there and then and they treated us very nice except that our flying rations the next day because we were then going to cross the pond then over to south, to the north end of South America and during that — MC: What [unclear] were the French? PE: Oh, that’s right. Yeah. They were very kind and the food you know because there was it was a quick decision for us. We couldn’t land because of this crosswind and the weight of the aircraft and so and that’s where we pulled in and they treated us so well. And the next day when we were eventually then flying across the pond to South America over the electric [unclear] somebody said, ‘Hey, don’t. Don’t touch the fish. These, these this is real fishy. It’s horrible.’ You know. Well, what it was caviar and it all went down, it all went down the flare chute. We thought these bloody frogs you know. They don’t know how to, you know. Yes, it was. But our navigator was a, he was, I liked him but he was very very aloof. He was a very very aloof chap and he let everyone, over the electric. ‘Actually chaps,’ he said. ‘You’ve just thrown away very excellent caviar.’ [laughs] So no. We did a few daft things in amongst it. Yeah. MC: So where, where did you fly to in South America? PE: Do you know we were right at the very north tip of South America and there was about three different places where we logged in at and I can’t remember them off hand but they are all places which we were familiar with. In fact, we, we met Douglas Bader I think. Is he the tin — MC: Yeah, that’s right. PE: That’s right, at one of the places he flew in to say hello because it was, it was quite an event having a number of Shackletons going around and showing the Shackleton off to the South Americans. That’s what we were doing and and — MC: What mark of Shackleton was it? PE: It was, we were still Draggers. MC: Known as a tail dragger. Yeah. PE: Yeah. MC: Yeah. How long were you in South America then? PE: Not, not all that long because I suppose I would say about probably about two or three weeks. That’s all. MC: So did you take the same route back? PE: No. No. Because what we did we were moving up bit by bit by bit by bit and then we went into Florida and then from Florida we flew back. There’s a couple of Atlantic islands there. Ones that anyone would like to go to. Posh sounding ones. I forget the names of them now unless I looked at a map but you know the sort of place that you know if you were going to go for a holiday oh we’re going, oh you know you were it was an up, an uprated. It was until we got there [laughs]] and then we of course we were wined and dined a lot you see. So it was a good experience. I mean it’s a [pause] everybody, everybody that went there was white overalls and three with sergeants stripes on each arm. Everybody. When I say everybody everybody who was beneath that rank you know. MC: Non-commissioned. PE: That’s right. Yeah. The idea of that because otherwise because some of the places that we did lob in at the the bed and breakfast would be pretty grim. You know the Air Force wanted a decent standard of of vittles for you know. MC: The crew. Yeah. PE: Yeah. MC: Yeah. So back in the UK how long were you at St Eval for? When did you leave there? Where did you go? PE: Actually I was quite peeved. I suppose I was there about two years or even [pause] yes two years probably at the most and the Troubles were on Northern Ireland and I got out of the blue I got a posting to Northern Ireland. And that was a very unhappy part of my life really. And the day you know you get your arrival chit and you go around to get you know well at the same time I also had an application for overseas. I was straight into when we, as we, as I arrived there there was a lot of trouble because the [pause] the powerlines had been blown up by the IRA. The power had gone for a ball of chalk and it was all, it was all a little bit iffy iffy arriving because you know they couldn’t bother with [pause] It didn’t matter where you came from. I mean I had the most disgusting woodland hut that I had to sleep in to begin with. You wouldn’t believe it that this was, this was the Royal Air Force you know. But anyway yeah so I applied for overseas at the same time as I — MC: Right. PE: Did my arrival chit and funnily enough I sort of noted it was, it was to the exact day an hour later. A day and a year later. The exact day a year later that my application had come through. Malta. Paradise because that was horrible in Northern Ireland. It was dreadful. A very unhappy time of my life. MC: Did you experience any of the Troubles? PE: Yes. Yeah. I mean the, the armoury itself. We had a lot of, a lot of weaponry there so we had an additional perimeter which was barbed wire and all the rest of it and dogs in between there and the next one. So actually just going to the station armoury and I mean it was an amazing thing happened which is true but it’s hard to believe that on one occasion the IRA attacked the, this isolated building which was now the station armoury with all the weaponry in it and the IRA turned up and they got in. Their key and this is, it was always a mystery. Their key fitted the station armoury lock which had to be a good one because it was, it had been moved from the camp to the other side of the airfield. And, and no one ever, no one ever worked out that except the poor bloke who offered his key. Anyway, that’s that beside the point but yeah so the, the Troubles were starting then and that was a very unhappy time. MC: So we’re off to Malta. How did you get on in Malta then? PE: Malta was fantastic. I got there and what they were looking for was for someone to go to Safi. I think that’s, I think that’s what it was called. Anyway, it was Marsaxlokk down at the, on the southern, there’s a fishing village. A Maltese fishing village and there’s a castle because you know in the 16th or 17th century they were always raiding. There was castles all the way around and that was one of those castles. Ideal for storing explosives because immeasurably thick. If I said to you something like fifteen feet thick you would say don’t be ridiculous nothing is fifteen feet thick. Well, it was. It was bordering on that and even you know in the middle of a really really hot day in Malta you went to [unclear] and you went down it was blooming cold down there. Ideal for storing explosives. So that’s where I spent my time. But because I was down there on the coast and Safi was inland in the morning I used to get up and then drive in a garrey down to Safi and I spent my my time down there. So I had my own boat. So, so it was, it was an unbelievable posting. I had my own boat and sailed that and because in the afternoon from 2 o’clock and that was it you know because it was too hot but it wasn’t too hot down there to get your boat out and go out and go out in to Marsaxlokk Bay and all the rest of it. So I had, I had, I spent two, two and whatever years. Two and a half years. MC: Yeah. Did you work on any aircraft while you were there? PE: No. MC: No. PE: No. Not at all. [pause] I forget what they were called but I worked hand in glove with the inspection regime of the Royal Air Force when it came to doing inspections. You had inspectors, a better name for it all but that sort of, but that so I was there to help with, because of the fact I’ve got, you know I’ve got experience with that sort of thing. So I was there to when the, oh I can’t think of the name of them but anyway that when they used to come to check certain explosive references or whatever they would want to come and they would so I was able to help them. I’m a bit vague on that now I’m afraid. It’s — MC: So how long was the Malta posting? PE: The normal time I think. Two and three quarter years I think it was. MC: Three years. Yeah. So where did you go after Malta then? PE: I have to just think of that for a moment. Oh yes. I really went back to the beginning because one of the first postings I got was there’s an ordinary RAF station just a few, about a thousand yards back from Bomber Command Headquarters in this country and it’s, and I got, I got posted back to to the station there as opposed to [pause] Bomber Command Headquarters had was a little area of its own in you know. But then there was an RAF station and that’s where I was basically in charge of the station armoury again. So I was there [pause] I don’t think I went very far after that because my, because I went to, I went to [pause] gosh. I’m drawing a blank at the moment. I’m trying to think of my first posting. I might have already mentioned it. MC: St Eval. St Eval. St Eval. PE: Oh yes. Yes. That’s right. Yeah. So I went back there. MC: Oh right. So, did you — PE: I was, I was also stationed in Driffield. It could have been Driffield I was posted back to. So I did, you know I did a spell in Driffield because we had the four, the four inter-range ballistic missiles down in I think in either four or five sites and there were certain parts of the, of each missile that needed, had explosives and needed the lab which was part of my domain. So that’s why. That’s why I got posted back there. MC: So did you finish your service there or was that where you? PE: Yes. I think I did. MC: Yeah. Yeah. PE: Yeah. MC: So how many years was that you did? How many years did you serve all told? PE: Give or take six months fifteen years. Could have been sixteen. Bordering on sixteen or fourteen and three quarters but it was basically the amount that I had signed on when I was lad of fifteen. MC: Yes. PE: Yeah. MC: Yeah. So you finished your Air Force career. You enjoyed it? PE: Yes. MC: Apart from Northern Ireland. PE: Northern Ireland was awful but yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I did. MC: So what did you do after you came out of the Air Force? PE: Well [pause] because I was back at, I had, my work involved nuclear stuff and so I had contacts with what do they call themselves? Scientific Civil Service. In fact, I was offered a job with the Scientific Civil Service when I left the Air Force [pause] because we had to, there were certain, you know there were certain rules and things which which they needed people. I mean that was my job at Bomber Command most of the time was answering the phone to armament officers throughout Bomber Command because once you’ve got nuclear stuff you’ve got your ordinary distances, safety distances and so on but you put a nuclear, anything nuclear and it it rubbished all of it. It all had to be worked out again. Safety distances and so on. So that was, that was a solo job for quite a long time. MC: So where did you live when you came out of the Air Force? Where did you live [pause] after the Air Force? PE: I lived in a caravan. Yeah. MC: So we never did did get around to what job you did. What job did you get when you first started? PE: What? After the Air Force? MC: After the Air Force. PE: I know I was offered by the Civil Service I was offered a job. MC: Yeah, you said. PE: And you know when it came to pay it was embarrassing. It was so low you couldn’t believe your ears. They offered me a job with apologies. They were apologising about the pay but they wanted me to be a Scientific Civil Servant. To begin with I didn’t know any better. But I sure very very quickly did and realised they, I was going to get peanuts you know. I couldn’t. I couldn’t survive on it and so I phoned them up to say, ‘I’m sorry but your pay is unbelievable.’ It was something like fifteen pounds a week. Well, you know if you’re married and you know I mean fifteen quid and you’ve got a car, you need to get to work and back I mean you know it was absurd. MC: So that brings me to the subject when did you get married? Were you married at that time? [pause] MC: Were you in the Air Force? PE: I wanted to say [pause] I think I was. I think I was married a few days after I left the Air Force. It was a very, a very close-run thing. It wasn’t a long period. MC: So you both lived in the caravan. PE: Unofficially to begin with because I was still in the sergeant’s mess and so it was, it was a bit difficult. A bit complicated so but that was only for, that was only for a couple of weeks and then I was out because we were both strapped for cash and Betty, so Betty got a job almost straight away and I’m living in this caravan. So it was a difficult period for about two weeks. I’d got this absurd, this job which sounded Scientific Civil Servant, oh yeah, you know. How much? About twelve and six a week. I mean it was ridiculous you know. But anyway, I then, I wasn’t very far from Rolls Royce, Leavesden so I contacted Rolls Royce Leavesden and I got a job as a technical author at Rolls Royce to begin with and I ended up as a welfare manager at Rolls Royce, Leavesden. MC: So how long were you with Rolls Royce? PE: Well, giving you a rough figure it would be ten years. MC: Was that until you retired? PE: Yes. MC: And what age did you retire then? PE: Presumably [pause] I mean I’m going to have to, I’m only going to have to give you a guess on that. I would say I retired at about the age of sixty. MC: So you didn’t do anything after you retired then. When you retired. PE: I don’t think I’ve got [pause] not paid. Not paid work. I did a lot of work. I was a, I was a Samaritan for twenty-nine years I think and to begin with you were called out so you know. I could be called out in the night and that sort of thing so I had, I did, that was you know an important part of my life I think for quite a while. MC: So going back to Rolls Royce you said you started as a technical author and finished up as a welfare manager. That was over a long period. Over a long period of time was that? Nothing in between? How did you come from technical officer to welfare manager. PE: Well, because I was a technical author and I [pause] it’s a good question [laughs] I knew that they were very, I know that the Civil Service was very angry with me because I turned the job down in the end because I got a much much higher job from Rolls Royce. I’d applied to Rolls Royce as a technical author as well as — [recording interrupted] PE: At an absurdly, well I thought it was rather low but it was absurdly low pay and then all of a sudden I got, I got a letter after quite some while from the Rolls Royce chap at Leavesden. Yeah. I think its Leavesden. MC: Yeah. PE: Airfield, and that. Yeah. And it was, it was virtually twice as much. I mean it was, it was, you know I was thinking you know I’m going to be up queer street here you know with this pay offer from the Civil Service. It was, it was absurdly low and so I had to make a few tentative enquiries here, there and everywhere to see and it was some little while later when I suddenly got this letter to go over to Leavesden for an interview. I went over there and they offered me the job straight away and that was a job of a technical author. But within a very short time I was managing an area in in [unclear] and then in the end I was given a [pause] they wanted me to take over probably because of the experience I’ve had in with, with well Samaritans. MC: Samaritans. Yes. Of course. PE: They, they thought they could use me better and they did and so in the end I got quite a quite a decent pay award from — MC: Yeah. PE: From Rolls Royce. So that’s where I stuck. I stuck with it. MC: So that Samaritans carried on after you, after you retired did it? The Samaritans work continued after you retired? PE: To begin with, yeah. Yeah. Yes. MC: Anything else you got, you occupied your time with? [pause] Education of any sort. Education. PE: Yes. I [pause] I got a degree. MC: You did a degree? PE: Yeah. MC: This was after you retired? PE: Yeah. MC: So you went to university. How old were you? Sixties. PE: Yeah. At a place near here somewhere [pause] Where’s the universities near here? MC: Well, there’s Lincoln. PE: Not Lincoln. MC: Nottingham? PE: Yeah. Nottingham. MC: Oh right. PE: So I used to go to Nottingham and yes and I [pause] medieval. Medieval history I think it was that I got a degree in so — MC: So what brought you to Lincoln? [pause] PE: I think, yeah to begin with my wife Betty she’s from Bridlington and all her family and folk and friends were in that area and when we were down in the south of England there was no problem about visiting because it’s too distant. But once you start getting a bit nearer you need a good excuse and I remember we, we didn’t want to get any, any, we wanted to have about seventy miles between us and Brid otherwise we would have to make excuses because Betty’s family was a fisherman’s family. There were, there were seven brothers or sisters and of course then, now their kids are, I mean there’s a huge [pause] so consequently there was a lot of, a lot of [pause] we had to be careful where we moved to and we thought Lincoln was ideal because it’s something like seventy, I think seventy miles came into it. I thought that was good. We don’t have to apologise for not going there at the weekend you know what I mean. So that’s why. That’s why we chose Lincoln I’m afraid. Not for any grand, grand reason. Yeah. MC: So you’ve lived in Lincoln for good number of years now then. PE: Yes. Yes. Yeah. MC: Well, Ted I think we’ve covered just about everything. PE: I’m sorry I’m a bit flaky about all this. MC: No. It’s alright. It’s understandable. No, that’s great and I appreciate very much you talking to me. PE: Well, ditto. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Peter Brian Edwards Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mike Connock Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-02-06 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 01:03:54 Audio Recording Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AEdwardsPB250206 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Great Britain Northern Ireland England--Buckinghamshire England--Cambridgeshire England--Cornwall England--Lincolnshire England--Yorkshire Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julie Williams Claire Campbell Carolyn Emery Description An account of the resource Peter Edwards is the son of a Halton apprentice. His father was based at RAF Wittering as Senior Technical Officer during the war, but his mother moved with him and his brother to Lytham St Anne’s for the duration. American servicemen were frequent visitors to their home and Glenn Miller stayed overnight. Peter also joined the apprenticeship scheme at RAF Halton. His first posting was at RAF St Eval. He was then posted to Northern Ireland before being posted to Malta. After the war, he worked as a technical author and welfare manager with Rolls Royce. After retirement, he earned a degree in medieval history from Nottingham and volunteered as a Samaritan. childhood in wartime ground personnel home front RAF Halton RAF St Eval RAF Wittering Shackleton training https://ibccdigitalarchive.omeka.net/files/original/3038/56380/PRutherfordN2401.jpg 67671fe16f38051ec11aab2d38dfe360 https://ibccdigitalarchive.omeka.net/files/original/3038/56380/ARutherfordN250315.mp3 7b768f5b91f4cb6612d952dabfd65117 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rutherford, Norman Description An account of the resource Two items. Oral history interviews with Norman Rutherford. He was a child in Cleethorpes during the war. The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-08-29 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Rutherford, N Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document AH: This is an interview for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Anna Hoyles and the interviewee is Norman Rutherford. The interview is taking place on the 15th of March 2025 in Kirmington. What was it like going to school during the war? NR: Well, one of the things about the actual school that I went to was the fact that really shortage of male teachers because I went to an all-boys school and of course the male teachers had been conscripted for the war and that sort of thing which left just female teachers but — [recording paused] NR: I started learning piano when I was about nine and it turned out that when I had to change schools at eleven and go to the Secondary School it was what was called a secondary modern in those days and when I went there I found that we didn’t have any music lessons or anything like that because especially the music teacher had been called up. Conscripted to I think it was the Army and of course there were no teachers. The other teachers even didn’t play the piano which was very fortunate for me really because I had been learning the piano since I was eight and I could just manage to play hymns and things like that so I was able to go into the different classes. I thought this was a good idea only being eleven or twelve because it did mean of course that I missed other lessons which I regret of course nowadays. But I used to go into the classes, different classes and just play for the singing lessons which meant of course I missed some of my most important lessons. And the last year of my schooling when I was fourteen, I left school when I was fourteen as you did in those days and the [pause] pupil that used to play during the last year, the last year of my time there he always used to play for assembly and of course by that time I’d got to be fourteen and was quite able. Or thirteen anyway. Thirteen to fourteen. I was quite able to play for the assemblies. It was a little bit really I suppose a little bit like Dad’s Army in a way. The programme. The well-known programme, “Dad’s Army.” The television programme whereby in actual fact the headmaster of the school he was, he was a captain in the Home Guard and I know one of the, I think it was the science teacher he was, he wasn’t captain I think he was a sub-lieutenant. So it’s rather, it was quite interesting. He was about the only teacher. I did mention that there were no, no male teachers but there were. I realise that there were just one or two. And of course some of the mottoes as well in those days one of them in particular was, “Careless talk costs lives.” Because of course you never used to know who was about and if you happened to be talking about something that was going on it might cost lives and so forth. And one of the other mottoes I remember was, “Make do and mend.” And I think that’s even coming back. I’ve even heard that coming back these days where a lot of people just have to make do with the clothes that they’d got and mend them and that sort of thing. Which I probably not doing that but people nowadays do keep their clothes for a little bit longer I think nowadays. AH: And were you aware, did you think about the, “Careless talk costs lives.” Were you aware of that as a child? NR: Not really. I think it’s, it’s later on that I’ve realised that. Of course, it didn’t really, well I don’t think it affected me too much because I wasn’t travelling in the way that people travel these days so I wasn’t mixing as much. AH: And do you remember with the making do, do you remember needing to make do? Do you remember missing anything? NR: Well, no. Partly due to I don’t think I was old enough and being a man I wasn’t really interested in, in clothing. I was more interested in woodwork and making planes. I remember making planes, model planes out of balsa wood. Especially a Mosquito. I can remember making that. The other thing I suppose in those days owing to rationing was the black market because it was, food was very scarce in those days and it was a question of some butchers might have certain, a little bit more meat left over for various reasons and that would be what we’d call in those days probably put under the counter and then probably charge a little bit extra to other people. We have also when I’m thinking about food we had, we used to have egg, I can’t remember, I don’t know what they call it, I think it’s probably, I can’t remember the name of it but it was like an egg preservative and I still have in my back yard the tin or container that we used to put the eggs in. We kept the eggs a lot longer in those days. AH: So, what, what was it? NR: I’ve no idea. Well, I say I’ve no idea. The reason being that in those days I wasn’t particularly interested but I do remember. I may be able to find that out because I think it was talking to my daughter about it a few months ago and she happened to, I think she mentioned the name. So I’ll try and remember and see if I can let you know what it was called. I’m not sure whether I mentioned the black out. All the buildings, houses of course you had to not have any light showing because of course enemy aircraft going overhead would light the place and there was still light. Yeah and so everything had to be blacked out and literally blacked out. We had shutters at the windows but they actually they served two purposes. One was if there was any shrapnel from bombs dropping or I’m not sure whether I mentioned it earlier where our particular road was machine gunned on the other side of the road and the, our shutters actually were made of wood and they were, they were fitted inside but a lot of the houses had shutters. They were on the outside. Not sure which was best but when I was talking about lights and so forth we had air raid wardens who would be patrolling the streets and if anyone happened to have a light on and hadn’t closed the curtains or something like that well then they would soon be shouting out, ‘Put that light out.’ That was a very common happening during the war. So — AH: You mentioned a plane across the road firing bullets. NR: Yes. Well, I think I did mention about the air raid shelters — AH: Yeah. NR: That we were in and I can remember on one occasion when we were in the Morrison shelter in the front bedroom and bombs had been dropping but also one of the most frightening things I think of all my life was the machine gunning where one of the German fighters was travelling overhead and firing at the houses and I could hear the rattle of the bullets across the shutters as I mentioned. Evidently it wasn’t caught in the searchlights because there were a lot of searchlights. I remember when I was caught for want of a better word evacuated but I was staying for about eight weeks at a place. Well, it was my old music teacher during the war supposedly where wasn’t any problems but there was an ack-ack, a mobile ack-ack gun going up and down the road every night so at least I didn’t have that where I was in my own house. AH: So where were you evacuated to? NR: Well, I call it evacuated. It was a place called Humberston which is just outside of Cleethorpes but I wasn’t, fortunately I wasn’t evacuated like a lot of the children. There were all sorts of things happened to the children during the war so I was very fortunate. AH: Did you, did you mind being evacuated? NR: No, because it was with somebody I knew. A lot of the children didn’t when for want of a better word evacuated. They had no contact even with their parents I believe. I just don’t know what happened because I wasn’t one of those. I was very fortunate. It was just might have been just a little bit of a rest from my mother. I don’t know. Or rest for my mother I should say [laughs] I don’t know. AH: Did you see her at all during that time? NR: Not during that no. But it was in contact although of course there wasn’t mobile phones and telephones in those days. In fact, my music teacher could, I was, when I say evacuated I stayed with her for this eight weeks and I mean she in actual fact used to cycle from, from Humberston to Cleethorpes every week to give me and three other people music lessons cycling in all sorts of weathers, in all sorts of air raids. I think the, I think the price of her lessons in those days was one shilling and thruppence which is five, seven and a half pence probably. Something like that now. AH: You mentioned roadblocks. NR: Yeah. Well, yes. The roadblocks were in one of the main thoroughfares into Cleethorpes. There was a concrete almost like a concrete wall built across with just a very very slight opening. I don’t know whether it was even wide enough for a car. I suppose it was really. But of course there weren’t many cars. And then of course there was the blocks on the Promenade. Right at the very end there were concrete blocks and I mean even the pier they decided to cut the pier in half so that the, if the Germans came up the river then they wouldn’t be able to get on the pier and get — [recording interrupted] NR: But nothing like that happened. AH: Going back to the plane, the guns going down the street was anyone, do you know if anyone was hurt by it? NR: No. No. There was no one hurt. It was just the fact. It was just a terrifying experience as far as I was concerned but no as far as I know no one was hurt. But while I was in the shelter it was very encouraging for my mother because of course as I say I was eight and we would sleep in the shelter and you would hear the engine noise but my, my mother would assure me that she knew the, certainly knew the sounds of the engine. She knew the sounds of the Lancaster bombers and she would say, ‘You’re alright. It’s one of ours.’ Because she could tell by the sound of the [pause] engines, Spitfires, and of course the Spitfire. I think I’ve dealt with that. AH: Did you see the grown-ups get scared or did — NR: Sorry? AH: Did you see the adults scared or did they always try and show they weren’t afraid? NR: Oh no. There was no sign of being scared and I can remember I was talking to a friend of mine only a matter of a few months ago and he was saying how during the war he was in a different part of the, in a different part just outside Cleethorpes but he was saying that very often his mother would be in the house and a neighbour would come in, ‘I’ve just had a telegram to say that Frank has been killed.’ And that was that. No sign of any emotion at all, you know. Often when during, after the war and I was conscripted, I served my time in the RAF, my two years in the RAF and very often I used to go by train from Cleethorpes to Padgate where I was stationed. Now, that’s going back of course. I mean quite a while after. After the war. But I used to see perhaps even soldiers or people in uniform probably with their girlfriends on the, on the station and it made me think of what it must have been like for the wives of the servicemen when they were called up and not knowing even when they’d been called up not knowing where they were and then just getting probably a telegram. I don’t have any experience of course of that but I can well imagine how dreadful it must have been. My own father of course was a fisherman. A skipper out of Grimsby docks and he wasn’t involved in the war in as much as he was deaf so of course he didn’t go into the forces. But rather strangely enough I now live in Kirmington and it was Kirmington which is now Humberside airport where he helped to lay the actual runway for the Lancaster. I don’t know what his job was. It would be some sort of navvying or some sort of job like that. AH: Did you say he also did shoe repairing? NR: Sorry? AH: Did you say he also did shoe repairs? Your father. NR: Well, when he, during yeah it was the wartime and he, he came ashore and he decided after the war he would go back fishing but he realised that he’d lost a lot of what is it, a lot of the way of the handling and he didn’t feel well enough. So he had, before he’d started fishing he’d started shoe repairing, apprentice shoe repairing and so of course he opened a shop in Grimsby of which of course I also took part in when I was old enough to do shoe repairing and so worked for him for a couple of years. That was, that was actually before I did my two years’ work at, you know in the RAF. AH: So you left school and worked for your father and then you went into the RAF for two years. NR: That’s right. Yeah. AH: And what did you do in the RAF? NR: Well, after the main training I was very fortunate. I seemed to have been very fortunate all my life because it turned out that after I’d done my initial what they called square bashing training at Padgate I was then stationed at a place near Hereford. Credenhill I think it was. And during that time my father was taken ill so I had compassionate leave for about a fortnight. He got a little better and I went back. When I went back to my unit my unit had gone to Southern Rhodesia as it was in those days. So I then came back up here and I spent time at another camp learning office work and was then posted to Liverpool and I spent the next eighteen months in the Liver Buildings at Liverpool and stationed in a civilian billet. So I was, that was in Birkenhead so daily I was, I had to go across the river and when I, during the morning my responsibility was the post. So I had to collect the post from the Post Office, the Central Post Office in Liverpool and then take it back at night. We also had in the sack a secret post and the secret post was in this ordinary post bag which was a hessian bag and inside the hessian bag was the secret post in another hessian bag with a lock on. Now, of course in those days knives weren’t prevalent so I think there was a bit of safety there but when I think about it these days just one swipe of the knife and the secret post would soon be released. But that was, I did that for eighteen months and of course my unit had a daily march on Liverpool docks which of course I missed because I was doing the post. Busy doing the post. AH: And what, what did you do after you left the RAF? NR: When I left the RAF I’ve done all sorts of things. My father then couldn’t keep myself so I went to different, I was working at different firms shoe repairing and then I went to the Co-op and during the Co-op I learned all the machinery and was doing all the machinery because I was one of the able bodied because a lot of shoe repairers and in that case nearly everybody there was handicapped and so you all needed to be able to operate the pedals on the machines. And so I spent time there and then decided to instead of shoe repairing I went to the Saxone Shoe Company selling shoes and from there went to college and teaching and so forth. AH: And was that all in Cleethorpes? NR: No. In Grimsby. Sorry. It was in Grimsby. Yeah. Yeah. It was the Co-op in Grimsby. AH: And then what did you teach at college? NR: I was at Bishop Grosseteste which I think is university now isn’t it? And that’s where I did the, that’s where I did the BEd degree but it was mainly half was music and the other half was education so it was my interest in music, a life long interest which I could recommend to anybody. Hard work but very enjoyable. AH: And you got married. NR: Yes. That was, that would be in what was it? 1961. We had two children and the surprising now really that one of my daughters is getting to the stage of thinking of retirement. I don’t know whether that should be on there [laughs] AH: Would you like me to pause it? [recording paused] AH: Going back to the war is there anything else that you’d like to add about your memories? NR: Well, one of the things there was a lot of unfinished housebuilding of course and I can remember perhaps after school I had some friends and we used to go to the, to the houses that were unfinished. We’d be climbing up and down all the over the buildings and that sort of thing as I think some people do nowadays which shouldn’t be doing. But anyway we were. They weren’t restrictions in those days but we certainly enjoyed just climbing as lads. We, I suppose instead of climbing trees we were climbing about on houses and and that sort of thing. But yeah the only other thing perhaps I didn’t mention was about Hull. The city of Hull. That of course Hull got a lot more bombing than Grimsby. Grimsby got a little bit of bombing because of the fishing but Hull got a lot more and we could actually see. I mean it’s Hull being across the other side of the river. We could even see the sky lit up at night where the bombs had dropped and these incendiary bombs and of course the buildings would be alight. Now, I don’t know whether I mentioned that when I lived in Goring Place, Goring spelt G O R without the e it wasn’t anything to do with the German general. During that time on the, on some spare land near the school they had a special unit where the firemen would practice if an incendiary bomb had been dropped. Then it was I mean as a, as a young child, lad I would often go and watch how the firemen would be crawling underneath the flames and putting the, aiming to put the fires out of the when the incendiary bombs were dropped. AH: And the houses that you used to play in that were unfinished — NR: How? AH: The houses that you played in. The unfinished buildings. NR: Yeah. AH: Did they get finished after the war? NR: Oh yes. They got finished and in fact I, my painter I think he lives in one of them actually now. Which is quite interesting. But yes in actual fact he was supposed to be coming on Saturday. He’s supposed to be coming, no sorry, last night. But anyway that’s beside the point. You can cut that bit out. AH: Is there anything else that you’d like to add before we finish? NR: No. I’m not sure I mentioned about one of my other things that happened during the war with regards to gas masks. We had to carry gas masks as a child and I can remember being eight years old and being fitted with a gas mask and I can, it’s not often but I can remember how, I can remember squealing and crying having this rubber put over my face. That was a terrible at my age then. I mean obviously you probably wouldn’t bother me now obviously but it was terrible and the smell. It was the smell as well of the rubber next to my, well next to my nose. And also talking of smells and things like that they did decide to remove, we had some iron railings near the house and during the war these railings, not only ours of course but the railings in parks, the local parks where they had iron railings they were all taken down and melted down for the war effort and I can remember the smell of the oxyacetylene cutters that were used to cut down these. It’s just a sort of smell that is associated with the war. In the same way things that affected me for many many years after the war was the noise of the sirens. Especially the first the warning sign where you get this wailing sound and it was every time but very often if I’d be watching a film and it was about the war and they’d put this siren my stomach would, I would feel that sensation and I can understand how people must have felt who went through worse than I’d gone through. So that was, you know that was a sort of sadness really. A fear. The usual sort of fear I suppose of uncertainly and so forth you know. I mean the all-clear. When the all-clear went that was that was alright. That was a straight. That was just a straight siren. That didn’t go up and down but it was the I think it was the noise of this because you knew very well that the next thing you had to make sure that you got down into the shelter. At first when and during the beginning of the war we had an Anderson shelter which I think I probably mentioned was, it was dug into the ground and it’s the clay. The smell of the clay and the horrible smell of the, of the actual shelter itself because that was an iron, galvanised iron, corrugated iron building but it was built into the, built into the ground and then the ground would be — in fact just opposite where I live now, at the back of my house they had built a new, built a new building. A few new houses there and on the waste ground only a matter of about oh five or six years ago when they were clearing the land they actually came across some of the old air raid shelters across there. That was the Anderson shelters of course. Yeah. AH: Thank you very much. NR: You’re very welcome. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Norman Rutherford. Two Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Anna Hoyles Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-03-15 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:35:53 Audio Recording Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ARutherfordN250315 PRutherfordN2401 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Great Britain England--Lincolnshire England--Cleethorpes England--Grimsby England--Hull Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julie Williams Carolyn Emery Requires A related resource that is required by the described resource to support its function, delivery, or coherence. Norman Rutherford spent his wartime childhood in Cleethorpes. He recalls German fighters strafing the town. He also recalled how the school changed as teachers were called away to war leaving older or female teachers in his school. He spent eight weeks evacuated to the home of his music teacher in Humberston. The noises and smells of his childhood like the gas masks and the sirens stayed with him to this day. Description An account of the resource Norman Rutherford discusses his schooling during the war and how few male teachers remained. He recollects the scarcity of food and the blackout. As a child he was briefly sent from his home in Cleethorpes to stay with his music teacher at Humberstone and remembers a mobile anti-aircraft gun going up and down the road. At home the family slept in a Morrison shelter and Norman speaks of his mother reassuring him that the aircraft noise they heard overhead included Spitfires and Lancasters, telling him 'You're alright, it's one of ours.' After the war Norman served for two years in the RAF, stationed in a civilian billet in Birkenhead with responsibility for collecting and delivering secret post concealed within a hessian bag. He also speaks of the sensory associations he retains from wartime - the smells of the rubber gas mask and of oxyacetylene from the cutting down of iron railings and the sound of the air raid siren. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Civilian bombing childhood in wartime evacuation fear home front shelter https://ibccdigitalarchive.omeka.net/files/original/3038/56378/PRutherfordN2401.jpg 67671fe16f38051ec11aab2d38dfe360 https://ibccdigitalarchive.omeka.net/files/original/3038/56378/ARutherfordN240829.mp3 84a1921d38ba2009538f86adfa6a7339 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rutherford, Norman Description An account of the resource Two items. Oral history interviews with Norman Rutherford. He was a child in Cleethorpes during the war. The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-08-29 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Rutherford, N Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document AH: This is an interview for the International Bomber Command Archive. The interviewee is Norman Rutherford. The interviewer is Anna Hoyles. The interview is taking place on the 29th of August 2024 in Louth, Lincolnshire. What year and where were you born Norman? NR: I was born in 1931 and I was born in Cleethorpes where I lived most, well quite, most of my life anyway. When I say most of my life it’s about half [laughs] now I think. Yeah. I moved to Kirmington about forty years ago so it’s about half my life nearly. Yeah. AH: And when the war started where were you living then? NR: I was living in Cleethorpes. Yes. AH: And how old were you then? NR: How old am I now, I’m ninety, oh sorry yes I am. Ninety-three. I will be. I’m in my ninety- fourth year anyway but I’m ninety-three. AH: And when the war started how old were you? NR: I was eight when the war started because ’31, ‘1939 so I had turned eight in the May. Yeah. AH: And whereabouts in Cleethorpes were you living then? NR: Well, I was living in a place called Goring Place believe it or not when we think about the Germans. But it wasn’t spelled the same as Goering who was well known in Germany but Goring Place in Cleethorpes didn’t have the e. it was just G O R I N G as opposed to the other one that had an e in it. AH: And who were you living with? Were you living with your parents? NR: I was living with my parents. Yeah. Yeah. I had a twin sister who died when she was five and so I was reared if that’s the right term as an, you know as an individual child really and, yeah. Was there anything else you wanted me to say at this point? AH: And do you remember, do you remember the build up to the war? Did you notice it? NR: Yes. I didn’t know an awful lot of it but my cousin Marcia who was a year or two older than me she would be about three years older than me and we used to play in, at her house and we discussed the war and that sort of thing even as an eight year old child but I can remember my cousin saying to me there will not be a war. But she was always an optimist anyway. I’ve known her, obviously she’s died now but she was always an optimist so that’s to be on the subject. I didn’t have, I didn’t know much about anything about the build-up at all. I’ve only known about the build-up since. You know. Like history. That sort of thing. AH: And do you remember when it was declared? NR: Yes. I do remember it but I only remember it as a fact of when I say do I remember it I think I only remember it through the fact of history. Knowing that it was, it was the 3rd of September. But to say whether I actually remember it at the time, no I don’t think I did. [pause] AH: Did anything, do you remember anything changing at school to start with? NR: Yes. I’ve got a few things to say if that’s alright to say from there. Regarding school of course we, well I’ve got the, I’ve got the war to thank really from a school point of view because when the sirens went we had to go into the shelters. Of course we were a little bit late starting school because it was sort of September time so we had to wait until the air raid shelters had been built and once they were built then we were fitted out with gas masks and that sort of thing. But as soon as the air raid siren went we had air raid drill and that sort of thing and so we joined the Senior School and the Infant School and we all went into the shelter. And when I say I’ve got the war to thank it was once we got into the air raid shelter nothing, no education was wasted because we did our times tables. So my times tables I consider myself fairly good at times tables because of that. So I very often see people with calculators and by the time they’ve got it put in the calculator but so, so it was very good for that. We had, shall I go a little bit from this time? We had the anti-personnel bombs. I don’t know whether you’ve heard of these but they were called butterfly bombs. Yeah. And we had a lot of butterfly bombs and they, well they were often found later. Later on. My father in actual fact was on the, he was an ARP which is an Air Raid Precaution Warden and he used to travel around in a van and that sort of thing because he was a skipper during the war. Well, he was a skipper before the war but when he came ashore. My mother said, ‘Well, you know you don’t have a gun on a trawler so I’d sooner you’d be ashore.’ So he came ashore and so he, one of his jobs during the war was this travelling around. He was the ARP warden and he did in actual fact when I say run over one he was in the sort of ambulance section and he did run over but not personally, there was something in the road that he’d never seen before and they they just managed to steer either side of the bomb. So the bomb was underneath. It wasn’t until later on that he found out that had he have hit that bomb you know. But it’s, it’s amazing really because part of his job as well, being ashore he wanted obviously to find work and he opened a shoe repairing shop because he’d done shoe repairing before he became a skipper. Can you stop it a minute? [recording paused] AH: So when did your dad come ashore? NR: Well, he came ashore at the beginning of the war because my mother was very much aware that there were no guns on the trawlers and so she felt it would be safer for that. But the interesting thing was as well that one of his jobs because he did a lot of different jobs during the wartime one of his jobs was helping to lay the runway at Humberside Airport. It was Kirmington Airport I think it was called in those days for the 166 [pause] 166 Squadron Lancaster bombers. And while he was there I lived as I say in Goring Place which was off Brereton Avenue and and he was told while he was there that the whole of Brereton Avenue was down. Had been bombed. So he’d no idea what to expect when he got home and the only thing that had happened there had been, we had been, our house had been in the centre of what you might call a triangle of bombs because there were three bombs dropped and we were, they were equidistance between all of them. We were in the centre. So we got the shrapnel from the bottoms and, but of course when he came fortunately that, that morning it was about 8 o’clock in the morning. My mother said, ‘It’s about time you got up.’ Called me up around 8 o’clock. So I was having a few extra minutes when all of a sudden this bang had happened and we’d already had the siren. That’s why my mother wanted to get me out and the shrapnel came through the window as I bent down to pick my slippers up. The shrapnel hit the furthest wall. It then ricochetted on to the other wall and then fell on the bucket and it wasn’t until we were decorating the other room and had to move a wardrobe that we found the force of the shrapnel which had come over two roads had actually lodged a brick. One of the pieces of shrapnel. The other piece of shrapnel went into the other bedroom where nobody was there so, but just going back to where he was told that the whole of Brereton Avenue was down and he didn’t know what to expect and the only thing that had happened in our back room which was facing this furthest bomb the whole of the window frame in the kitchen and the living room had, had just, just blown out. Not, when I say blown out, the whole frame complete with the window. It wasn’t, the window wasn’t broken. The frame had broken and moved out with the blast of the bomb and we had an aerial coming down for the radio and this, this window fell onto the railing and my father came home, saw what had happened and just pushed it back. So but we did have shelters, we had the Anderson shelter and the Morrison shelter. Shall I explain what’s the difference between the [pause] yeah. The Anderson shelters were in the, in the ground and they had to be dug out. Enough to hold a family. They were quite deep and they did, they did have corrugated roofs and so you could put soil over the top and a lot of people grew plants on the top and that sort of thing. But the worst thing about that I remember was the fact that being eight years old and I was fast asleep again and I didn’t wake up. I was carried down into the shelter one particular night and I was carried back up without even waking up at all by my mother. But the thing about the Anderson shelter of course being in the ground it had what they called a sump which filled with water. Every day that had to be emptied and the thing that I can remember was the smell of the clay and I can still smell clay when I know what it is. So, but my grandmother lived with us and she was stone deaf. What they called stone deaf in those days. [recording interrupted] NR: We were allowed to have the Morrison shelter. Now, that was a, it was like an iron table in the room and we slept underneath the table and the side was like a lion’s cage. So we slept in there and my grandmother would not come in the shelter. She was a very religious, Methodist religious person and she said, ‘The Lord’s looked after me. He’s looked after me all my life. He’ll look after me now.’ Even when we were on the opposite side of the road we heard the Spitfires, not the Spitfires sorry but the enemy aircraft coming along and firing bullets across the, across the road. Now, we did have, we did have wooden shutters at the windows but fortunately our side of the road didn’t get any, anything at all. So I think — [recording paused] AH: When you said you almost got hit by shrapnel how did you feel? NR: Well, I don’t think I, I mean as an eight year old child it was, it was just something that happened to a certain extent. I think I was more concerned about getting into trouble with my mother because I hadn’t got up in time. Yeah. Oh, one thing that probably might, might be of interest was the fact that during the war of course I used, my parents were Methodists, very strong Methodists and there was a Methodist church across the main road to Grimsby. Grimsby Road. And so they used to go there but some neighbours had two children, boys and they belonged to the Church of England Mission Church on the other side of the road. On this side of the road as it were and my parents decided that I should change religion [laughs] one of the, because they had a boys’ choir. So it was my, I was very fortunate. It’s one of the best things they did I think for me because a lot of my life stems from around this. They decided I should join the choir so I joined the church choir because my mother thought, well if the air raid siren went I’d got to get across the busy main road. Now, the busy road, the busy main road in 1939 wasn’t anything like it is now but you know I did have to get across the road because there were trams going across the road and she thought it would be safer and it would be quicker obviously as soon as the siren went. Well, I was coming back one night from choir practice it would be about seven, half past seven I should think at night and I saw what they, I understand that it was called a dogfight. But I think the dogfight was, it was between two planes and it was quite interesting to me because I didn’t know what was happening. I could see these two aircraft as I was going along the road firing at each other. It was quite exciting and when I got to tell my mother I don’t think she thought it was quite as exciting as I did [laughs] AH: And did you recognise, were you able to recognise engine noises for different aircraft? NR: Yes. Yes. This was the thing about my mother. While we were in the shelter, in the Morrison shelter we, we could hear the planes overhead and the one thing my mother used to say, ‘You’re alright. It’s one of ours.’ And we could tell the Lancaster bombers. We could tell the Spitfires and one of the aircraft that we, one of the German aircraft that we could tell were the, I think they were called the V-bombers. Known as Doodlebugs. I don’t know whether you’ve heard of those and of course if you heard those coming across you were very keen to make sure that the sound didn’t stop because once the sound stopped you knew that it was going to drop somewhere. So, I mean you’re just going back to the butterfly bombs. We learned afterwards I think it was that if Germany had known how successful those were they would have dropped a lot more. But apparently, I understand that it was to be made known that nobody spoke about these things and so, so they weren’t talked about you know. I don’t know if there was anything else. AH: You said something about lamp posts. NR: Oh yes. The, this particular bomb that I was talking about that had the shrapnel the day after I was walking down the avenue only just yards from where this bomb had dropped and the lamp post you could almost think it was like gorgonzola cheese. Made of gorgonzola cheese. It was just absolutely full. It was just full of holes where the shrapnel had gone through. That was exciting as far as I was concerned. Things, I think things were a little bit more exciting although I was afraid of the actual air raids. But anything like that was exciting. I mean, when I was, when I went because the war carried on until 1944 so I was in a secondary school and I had to walk along this avenue. The Brereton Avenue I was talking about and I do remember walking down there one night when the, not the bombs that I was talking about but some other bombs had dropped along this and of course it had demolished the houses on both sides of the road and the rubble was across, all across the road and I didn’t recognise the road that I was walking on. I knew, I knew the road but it just didn’t occur to me what road it was with all the, all the actual rubble. AH: And how did you feel about that? NR: I can’t say that I had any particular feelings. I mean the main feelings of the war were the fear when the actual things were taking place close at hand and the sadness because I can remember a friend of mine telling me that his parents, one of the neighbours came in one day and said, ‘Oh, we’ve had a telegram. Tom’s been killed.’ That was it. You know. And — AH: Who was Tom? NR: Well, it could have been anybody. Could be your neighbour. That was the sort of thing that happened. People, what happened, what they must have felt I just cannot imagine. What they must have felt like and it makes me upset when I think of the men that left their families. Off to war and the, they didn’t hear anything from them. Prisoners of war. I’ve just recently been reading a book from one of my neighbours. Well, a few months — [recording interrupted] NR: I heard about it but it was very vivid. I mean it just doesn’t bear thinking about. The way you were treated. You know, that was the, that’s the, that’s the main fear or the main sadness and you know it’s a question of and at that time I think there was also — [recording interrupted] NR: I was lying there in the Morrison shelter and I, opposite the shelter in the room was a fireplace and I used to think to myself I wonder if I shall see the fireplace in the morning, you know. So that — [recording interrupted]. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Norman Rutherford. One Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Anna Hoyles Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-08-29 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:25:21 Audio Recording Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ARutherfordN240829, PRutherfordN2401 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Great Britain England--Lincolnshire England--Cleethorpes Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julie Williams Carolyn Emery Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1944 Description An account of the resource Norman Rutherford was born in Cleethorpes in 1931 and remembers as an eight year old child discussing with his cousin as to whether there would be a war. Norman recalls the sound of the air raid sirens and learning his multiplication tables in the school shelter. He describes butterfly bombs and an incident where his house was damaged by shrapnel from a nearby bombing and having to walk to school along the road which had been bombed and being unable to recognise it because of the rubble. His family had both an indoor Morrison and an outside Anderson shelter and he recollects that the Anderson shelter had to be emptied of water each day. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Civilian Air Raid Precautions bombing childhood in wartime RAF Kirmington shelter https://ibccdigitalarchive.omeka.net/files/original/3037/56376/ARogersEA240501.mp3 4a289f350f7982c0d06a67e3f6e43ae2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rogers, Elizabeth Ann Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Elizabeth Ann Rogers. The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-05-01 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Rogers, EA Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document AH: This is an interview with Elizabeth Ann Rogers on the 1st of May 2024. The interviewer is Anna Hoyles and we are in Louth. What year were you born? ER: I was born November the 12th 1935 so when war was declared in September ’39 I was just two months short of my fourth birthday. So, and the first recollection I have of the Second World War is of the Anderson shelter that we had in the back garden. A corrugated Anderson shelter provided I think free of charge by the local authorities and I remember standing looking in it and it had got a lot of water in it and a dead rat floating on top [laughs] I can’t remember that we ever went into it. And then my father got an indoor shelter. That was called a Morrison shelter. Again I think they were government issue. I don’t know whether we had to pay for those shelters or not. So I do remember sitting in the Morrison shelter and sleeping in it and we must have had some water and food in there but I can remember a tin that they had that was I think yellow and blue and I think they were called cabin biscuits which I think were very very hard and probably something like dog biscuits [laughs] And then I can remember hearing the planes going over and when the bomb was dropped in the Sussex Recreation Park at the back of our house in Reynolds Street, Cleethorpes the, all the windows at the back were blown in. And I remember that particular morning I just don’t know how old I would have been going downstairs, going into the back room and the tiny table laid for breakfast and the windows coming in and the coffee pot, a green coffee pot flying across the room and landing at my feet. Years and years later I asked my mother if if I’d imagined that but she said no that had happened but she couldn’t remember what my reaction had been and I can’t remember. And then another episode was during the bombing of Campden Crescent which was the street adjacent to Reynolds Street and bombs were dropped there and that’s when all the front windows of our house were blown in and on that occasion I’d come out of my bedroom, got to the top of the stairs and the landing window flew in. And again that’s something I asked my mother about and she said that was true. That had happened. But again she couldn’t remember what my reaction had been and I can’t either. I can hardly think it must have seemed like an everyday event to me but I can remember those quite clearly and my grandma used to, when there was an air raid she used to stand at the front bedroom window and she could see I suppose the bombing lights over Grimsby. And on one occasion this German plane came down the street, it must have been quite low and she looked at the pilot. He had his flying helmet on and his goggles. He looked at her and then he went on his way. At the bottom of the street there was some allotments so I can only think that he would have been going over the allotments in the direction of the Old Clee Road but would then get out over the North Sea to get back to wherever he’d come from. But on another occasion when a plane came down the street the young lady who lived opposite, I think she would have been about eighteen at the time, Evelyn Innott she didn’t like going into the shelter. They had an outdoor shelter. She was standing that day at the bedroom window and this German plane came down and she was killed. He fired and she was killed and I do remember her funeral as well because I think she’d been a Girl Guide and there was a procession in the street when she died. What else can I remember? AH: Was that common then? That planes came down the street? ER: It, well it must have been and it does seem very strange to me that the planes were so low but I just don’t understand that. I really don’t. But I know grandma talked about it. Making eye to eye contact almost with this [laughs] this German pilot. And what else can I remember? Oh, my father. He couldn’t be called up because he was deaf but we had the grocery shop and my father joined this special constabulary in Cleethorpes and I’ve got his book somewhere for his patrols that he had to do. And he had to say be at the Electricity Showroom at the bottom of Isaacs Hill in Cleethorpes say at 9 o’clock at night and then by say five to ten he had to be at the Royal Cinema near the railway station and about fifteen minutes later he had to be at the entrance to the pier at Cleethorpes and he had to keep a record in this book and it would be when he’d finished his duty I think he had to go somewhere before he came home and it was signed by somebody. And my cousin Bill, seven years older than me, he wasn’t old enough to be called up but he told me he acted as a runner for these special constabulary gentlemen and used to take messages to them. It’s a pity he’s not alive now, my cousin Bill because he would have been in his early nineties and he would remember more than I could. When we were bombed and the windows came in on both occasions I had to go around to live with Bill’s mum who lived in Douglas Road off Suggitts Lane in Cleethorpes and she hadn’t got an air raid shelter so when there were raids there then we used to sit under a big wooden table in the kitchen. And I remember one time she had a lodger. He was Irish. He was called Paddy and I think he was in England to help with the rebuilding of railways as and when necessary but I do remember him sitting under this table. He must have had a rosary and all the time he was under the table he was muttering Hail Mary’s, I think. ‘Hail Mary Mother of God.’ Something like that in this lovely Irish accent. I don’t know how long he was there for but it just sticks in my mind. AH: Do you remember being afraid? ER: Afraid? AH: Yeah. ER: No. It’s funny that Anna. I don’t. My children ask me that and I say no. I can’t ever remember being afraid. I think like say children in Northern Ireland at the time of the Troubles growing up it was just almost seem as a way of life. A normal way of life. But when war was declared I wouldn’t have been old enough to, you know notice such a big difference maybe or not be aware of it so, no as I said to my children I can’t ever remember being afraid. One thing that sticks in my mind. The very words to this day. Butterfly bombs were dropped in Grimsby and Cleethorpes and Ipswich I believe. These were the first places in England to get these butterfly bombs. I didn’t see one. I can’t remember ever seeing one but at school and again I’m not sure when it, which year it happened so I don’t know how old I was but at school I remember an official gentleman came in a uniform maybe police, maybe fire officer and told us that we hadn’t to pick up anything in the street and he said, the exact words have stuck with me all these years. ‘Don’t pick up anything in the street. Not even a matchstick.’ And you know those words have stuck with me from being goodness knows how old at the time six, seven and here I am at eighty-eight and I can hear those voices. That voice quite clearly still. And the other thing we used to do at school was collect books which I suppose were for servicemen and I don’t know how many you had to take to get a little yellow badge I remember and so say maybe when you’d taken ten books you got a badge and I remember having a little cluster of badges in yellow which I had attached to my gas mask bag and my gas mask as I can recall or the bag was a silvery grey colour with I’m sure it was a Mickey Mouse face on it. I wish I’d kept it. It would be interesting to have that now. So what else? AH: Was your school open all through the war? ER: Oh yes. I can’t remember school ever being closed. No. No. The only time I can remember school being closed was after the war. The bad winter of 1947 when I was doing the scholarship and the, we had, I went to school, the boys and girls doing the scholarship. We went to school and we had lessons that January time in the headmistress’s room or the staff room which was very very nice because both those rooms had coal fires so we were warm and comfortable. Of course coal was still rationed then in 1947. Yes. So that’s the only time I remember that school had been partially closed. AH: What was the scholarship for? ER: To go to the Girl’s Grammar School in Cleethorpes which I passed. I don’t know how because I always felt I, once I got to the Grammar School I really struggled. I felt so [pause] but I’m trying now to think what else. I’ll just look what I jotted down to remember to tell you. [pause] ER: No, I think I’ve remembered everything. Yeah. I haven’t got, there’s people you know who could be three or four years older than me who will have far more vivid memories. Yeah. That’s butterfly bombs. Yes. That’s, that’s everything I jotted down. AH: So you were born in Cleethorpes. ER: Born in Cleethorpes. In Reynolds Street. Yes. Yes. And — AH: And where were your parents from? ER: Parents? Well, my father was born in Cleethorpes in 1907 and my mother was born in Cleethorpes in 1917. Yes. So what else? AH: You mentioned a grocery shop. ER: The grocery shop on High Street in Cleethorpes. Yes. My great grandfather, William Sheardown, he’d left either Great Carlton or Little Carlton I’m not sure which one it is when he got married and came to Cleethorpes and got this property on the High Street and opened the grocery shop and my grandfather worked in it and then my father of course had gone into it. When war was declared — [recording interrupted – background static] ER: I suppose she had the option of either being called up into one of the Services or going to work in the munitions factory which was in Cleethorpes. Wonderland at the end of the promenade, the northern end of the promenade and she went there to work. So my mother went into the shop. Yes. And she liked it and she stayed in the shop and my grandma, oh yes my grandma, my mother’s mother she’d gone down just a few weeks before war was declared. She’d gone down to I think it was Romford. It was certainly in Essex to visit relatives, her niece and my father realising that war was going to be declared sent her a telegram because they hadn’t a telephone down there. Sent her a telegram and he’d worded it apparently, ‘Return home immediately. War imminent.’ So after that, allowing time for grandma to get herself gathered together he went down to Cleethorpes Station and met the various trains that came in from London, far more of those in those days then there would be today and eventually he met her off the train. And at that time my grandma was living with another daughter, my Auntie Peg. But my father thinking that he might be called up because he really wanted to go into the Navy he asked grandma if she would come and live at Reynolds Street because he didn’t like the thought of my mother and me being us being on our own during the war years. So she agreed that she would. So she obviously must have moved her luggage from Auntie Peg’s to our house and she stayed with us, really brought me up because after the war my mother didn’t want to give up work. She liked it in the shop. So grandma stayed with us and kept house until the day she died. Yes. So, but she was from Sunderland area, Grandma Elliot. So and then the other thing I can remember but I don’t know whether this would have been after the war helping my mother and father count the coupons from ration books. And on a Sunday evening my father would empty all the coupons out and they were in strips of A, B and C and I think four, four coupons in each strip and they had to be counted and put into their groups of A, B and C. And my father used to take them on a Monday morning around to the Food Office which was in the marketplace at Cleethorpes and I suppose once I learned to count I don’t know whether I would have done it during the war years but of course rationing lasted for a long time. So whether it was after the war was over and I would help them on the Sunday evening to count the coupons. So yeah. So I think that might be as much as I can remember. AH: Do you remember there being a lot of bombings? ER: Hearing a lot of bombing? AH: Yeah. Or being in the shelter a lot. ER: No. I really couldn’t say. We obviously, I didn’t sleep in the shelter every night. The fact that on those two occasions daylight hours, breakfast time when I was getting up the windows came in so we didn’t automatically sleep in the shelter I really don’t know. Well, I suppose it would just be when they heard planes coming over. If I was asleep in bed maybe they just gathered me up, took me downstairs and put me in the shelter. So, but I do remember my mother and grandma in the shelter as well and of course my other grandparents, Grandma and Grandpa Sheardown, they lived on Grimsby Road, Cleethorpes. I guess they must have had a shelter but I, I can’t remember. No. AH: Do you remember what you felt about the shelter? ER: Well, I don’t think it bothered me. I can’t remember crying or being upset at having to settle down in the shelter to sleep. Probably just thought it was [pause] well again maybe thought it was just a normal thing or an adventure. I really don’t know. Looking back I feel like I haven’t very strong emotions really about the war. Not while it was actually happening. But I don’t think I could have been a hysterical sort of child that soon got upset and crying. I really don’t know. AH: Have you felt differently after the war about it? ER: I felt differently once I began to learn about the war and especially the atrocities and the concentration camps and you know the millions of Jews who lost their lives. Awful. The same with the Japanese camps as well. I, I find thinking about those absolutely horrifying. Yes. No idea, if the Germans had got to England I’ve just no idea how I how I would have reacted as a child. My parents of course would have been very defensive. No. It’s difficult to know. When I, let me think, it would be easily forty years ago when I lived up in Knaresborough I was asked if I would help with the WRVS. If I would do the Library Service for them in the small hospital that was in Knaresborough at the time, long since gone and I took a trolley around with books and one gentleman got talking to me. He said, because I hadn’t a WRVS uniform and you know I had a badge and so we are talking forty odd years ago when I would be in my late forties and he said how much he admired the WRVS because he had been in a Japanese prisoner of war camp and he said you could hardly bear to think about it but he said that the rumour got around the camp that the British or Americans were nearby. All the Japanese soldiers there just disappeared overnight and just left the prisoners and he said that the first person who walked through the gate and into that camp was a WRVS lady and he said more followed and the soldiers. I think they must have been British soldiers. I’m not sure. But he said this WRVS lady when she spoke to him she asked him what he would like to eat and he had said he would like a boiled egg and he said he was crying. He was so tearful and such relief and he said eventually she brought him the boiled egg and he said she sat him on her knee because he only weighed about six stone or even less and he said, ‘She fed me that boiled egg with a spoon as you would feed a baby.’ And he said he’d never forgotten that. So, and that made an impression on me. Him telling me that because I thought no wonder they cried and so forth. Men to see all of a sudden people arrive and know for them the war was over. Yes. Dreadful. So — AH: Did you have any relatives who were involved in the war? ER: Oh yes. My, my Uncle Jack, Uncle Tom rather, my mother’s brother. He was nine years older than my mother. He would have been born in about 1918 wouldn’t he? She was born in, no. Wrong there. He would have been born 1908. He was nine years older than my mother so in the war he went into the Navy and then my mother’s cousin who was quite a bit older than her he went into the Merchant Navy and we used to laugh and joke about it in the family and say that between Uncle Tom and cousin Alex the pair of them won the war between them. A bit like Errol Flynn in those films [laughs] but Uncle Tom and Alex they were in Monte Video at the time of the River Plate and the Graf Spee and Alex was on, now what was it called? Highland Monarch and Uncle Tom now I always have to think carefully about this whether it was Ajax or Ark Royal but I think it was Ark Royal. But they, they could see each other’s ships and knew that they were both there. Yes. Which you know they often mentioned. Remembering that they were both there at the River Plate and uncle, no Alex said that and I never knew for sure whether he was kidding me about this but he said during the battle his captain was in his bathroom and a bullet flew through the bathroom window porthole whatever. Missed him. But Alex said that I don’t know how long it was after the war and I think this captain went on to bigger and better things. That the King had shown a sense of humour and given him his honour. The Order of the Bath. But I never knew whether Alex might be kidding me about that one. I wish I could remember what he said the captain’s name was but I can’t remember. Yes, I’d just forgotten about that for the moment when I was jotting things down. So, so they both came through the war unscathed. Alex remembered about coming back from Suez on his ship and they got back. I don’t know whether that was still the Highland Monarch but they got back to England and they’d got all their summer gear on for the hot weather and they were immediately sent off to Iceland without any warm clothing at all he said [laughs] But of course Alex died about, oh ten years ago now and of course he was older than me but he had a good memory about the war. But he came out of the war. He didn’t stay in. Oh yes. I’ve just remembered this. Am I going on for too long? AH: No. Not at all. ER: You can edit this can you as and when necessary? Yeah. Cousin Alex when he came out of the war he had to have a kidney removed and he was in a hospital in Liverpool and a lady used to go into the hospital to do some visiting, Doreen and he fell in love with her. It was virtually love at first sight between the two of them and Doreen could play the piano by ear. Now, what she did during the war I don’t know for sure. It was some kind of Naval work I think in an office but she used to go to St George’s Hall in Liverpool to play the piano which was broadcast by the BBC to troops overseas and her brother, he was in the Army and he was in the Middle East and he, he off duty one evening he had the radio on and all of a sudden the person announced this concert from St George’s Hall, Liverpool. Doreen [Hanall?] I think was her surname. Doreen [Hanall] playing the piano and her brother said to the other men gathered around, ‘Oh, this is my sister.’ And apparently he’d always said what a lovely feeling it was that evening to sit and listen to his sister playing the piano. Yes. After the war the BBC offered Doreen a job for piano playing but in the end they wouldn’t accept her because she played by ear and she couldn’t read a note of music and of course if she was taking part in a live broadcast and her mind went blank she wouldn’t be able to read the music. So she, she missed the nice chance there but they got married in, I think it was 1946 or ’47. She moved down to Romford to live. Marvellous pianist. So that was an end of the war romance when Doreen and Alex met. Yeah. AH: Do you remember the end of the war? ER: Not really. It’s strange that. I can’t remember it. I think they had a street party in Reynolds Street because there was a room in Reynolds Street that belonged to the TocH and I’m sure they had, we had a street party there that I would have gone too but I really can’t remember it at all. AH: What’s Toc H? ER: Toc H. That was a Benevolent Society of some sort. I’ve forgotten the name of the man who founded it. Chad somebody. I’ll look it up in the dictionary. You don’t hear of them now. Now, you see most had a lamp outside their buildings which was very dim because people used to say about some person, ‘Oh, he —’ or she, ‘Is as dim as a Toc H lamp.’ [laughs] Let me see. I hope I can find it in here. [pause] No. I can’t. Oh, here we are. Toc H. Signallers code. A society formed after World War One to promote the spirit of comradeship and Christian fellowship. Ah, from its first meetings at Talbot House at Poperinge in Belgium. So Talbot House. Tal h. Toc H. It doesn’t say the name of the founder but I’m sure it was someone, Chad somebody. It will be on Google I should think if you want me to look. No. AH: I can look later. ER: You Can. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So — AH: Do you remember ever being told anything about Cleethorpes in the First World War? ER: Yes. I’ll have to think about this. It was to do with Alexandra Road. I think it was a Baptist Chapel that was bombed in the First World War. I think my grandma may have mentioned that. But that’s, that’s really all I can [pause] oh now [pause] Doodlebugs. Now what exactly were Doodlebugs? Was it hit by a Doodlebug? Have you heard of Doodlebugs? AH: Yeah. Were they Zeppelins? ER: Zeppelins? AH: In the First World War. ER: Yes. That’s what it was. Yes. I think it was probably it might have been one of the first buildings to have been hit by one [pause- pages turning] Oh. Doodlebug. Oh, that’s something to do with an insect. I’ll have another look. Oh yes. Oh. The V-1 flying bomb. World War Two slang. So [pause] I can’t, I can’t be sure about that. No. I can’t be too sure [pause] No. Nothing comes to mind and I wouldn’t know who to ask [pause] No. I’ll think on it. It might suddenly come to me but there was something about this Baptist chapel. AH: I think I’ve seen it. I think it was a Zeppelin. ER: You think so. AH: Yeah. ER: Yes. AH: There were soldiers in the chapel. ER: Yes. There would have been. Yes. It could have been used as a social place as well for soldiers to go to. The old Empire Theatre in Cleethorpes and Alexandra Road was used for that as well where the soldiers could go and my mother used to go in there sometimes to help and there would be writing paper and pens and ink provided for the soldiers. AH: Did your mother do other things for the war effort? ER: I think she was somehow involved with the WRVS which is why she would have gone to the Empire Theatre but I can’t remember anything else that she mentioned. No. So — AH: Were you an only child? ER: In any? AH: Are you, were you an only child? ER: Yes. Yes. My father was an only child but my mother was one of, the youngest of five. Yes. I’m searching around in my mind to see if I can think of anything else. I know my cousin Bill and I when we were talking. We always said it was amazing that the Germans never bombed Wonderland in Cleethorpes at the end of the promenade where ammunition was being made and they, they never hit that. Funny that. In fact, the only, the only thing I can think of is going back to that Baptist Chapel in the First World War. But I can’t, I think in, I don’t know in Campden Crescent I think some houses were destroyed there in the street adjacent to Reynolds Street. But otherwise — AH: Don’t worry about it. ER: There must have been more damage to buildings in Cleethorpes than I can remember. Our shop wasn’t hit. My grandparents on Grimsby Road, I dare say when that bomb fell in the Sussex Recreation Ground and our back windows came in my grandparents who lived on the main road probably their back windows would get blown in but I can’t remember that being mentioned. No. So — AH: Did you ever go to Grimsby? Do you remember? ER: I can’t remember going to Grimsby in the war years. No. I can remember but I think it would be when I would then be about ten or twelve my grandma and I going up to Freeman Street in Grimsby. She liked to go to the market but that was after the war. No. I can’t remember. But I know there were streets in Grimsby which obviously were hit. AH: Do you remember seeing them? ER: No. I can’t. No. I can’t. I think at the back of Freeman Street where the market was properties must have been hit there because I do remember it doesn’t really seem too long after the war tall blocks of flats being built there. I think they’ve been demolished now. I’m not sure. So, no I can’t remember spending a lot of time Grimsby at all [laughs] No. Just Cleethorpes. I can’t remember what the promenade was like in Cleethorpes during the war. No. Supposedly we must have gone down and walked along it but again I can’t remember. No. No, I just seem to remember my various cousins. You know, they would come around to our house in Reynolds Street, play in the garden with me that’s, that’s about it. I do remember of course going down to London after the war. My grandma took me down because after she came back from Romford when the war was declared the few days later she didn’t see the relatives down there. It was cousin Alex’s mother who lived down there and Alex’s sister and grandma of course was anxious to see them so as soon as it was peace had been declared we went down to London and train from Cleethorpes to King’s Cross and we stayed with Auntie Floss, Alex’s mum in Romford and well we would have gone up to London [pause] I can’t remember, on the Underground and I remember seeing the bomb damage in London and these tall flowers growing. Pink flowers and I remember asking my grandma about the flowers. How pretty they were and she said they were called rosebay willowherb. Yes. And so I do remember the bomb damage. And we went up to London on, it would have been VJ Day when the war had finished in Japan and the then King George the 6th and the Queen Mother as she became, Princess Elizabeth our late Queen and her sister Princess Margaret. We stood on the Mall in London and they came from the Palace in an open landau to go to, it would either be St Paul’s or Westminster Abbey but I think St Paul’s for a Thanksgiving Service. And my Uncle Tom who was in the Navy at the Battle of the River Plate he turned up at the house in Romford unexpectedly in his Naval uniform and he went up to London with us. And I remember I’ve got a letter that I wrote to my parents because Uncle Tom said to me when the King and Queen get back to Buckingham Palace they will invited us in for tea. So I’ve written this in the letter. ‘They’ll invite us in for tea — but they didn’t.’ [laughs] Oh dear. So yes. So, so we went up to London a few years after that. Grandma liked to go and see the relatives so I was taken around London to see the sights but of course that was all after the war. AH: Do you remember seeing the King and Queen? ER: In that carriage, yes. Yes. Quite distinctly. Yes, and I think the late Queen, Queen Elizabeth the 2nd she was dressed in blue I seem to think. I think somewhere I may have seen a photograph in a book of them in the carriage as well but I can remember seeing them quite clearly. AH: Do you remember what you thought about it? ER: Oh, I think I was excited because the two princesses especially I was interested in and I kept a scrapbook or two with newspaper photographs of them. Of course, you didn’t, there was no television. You didn’t see and hear so much about the royal family then as you do now and only the other day on Radio Lincs someone was talking about scrapbooks. I don’t know whether scrapbooks were going to be in an auction but I thought about my scrapbooks and I thought oh what a pity I didn’t keep my scrapbooks because I know I was always excited when there was a photograph in the paper of the princesses especially and I would cut them out and stick them in my book. Yes. Yes, so I would be very excited. I think probably more excited at seeing the two princesses than actually seeing the King and Queen. My father had a map in the sitting room during the war of Britain and Europe. I don’t know whether it covered Japan and that area but I know he used to obviously be listening about battles and he would put little pins in this map and I don’t know what happened to that. It was a pity that wasn’t kept but of course. I suppose after the war people were so thankful it was over I suppose that’s why they would get rid of stuff. We never kept a ration book from the shop. I remember my father and mother and saying that. How strange we never kept a ration book. I’ve still got my identity card. I don’t know how old I would have been when that was issued but I’ve still got my identity card from being a child. AH: Do you remember when rationing ended? ER: When? AH: When rationing finished. ER: I can’t remember [pause] when butter, sugar and such like came off ration but I don’t think meat came off ration until about 1952 and I’m not sure whether around that time there wasn’t some problem about flour and whether bread had to go on ration. But I may be wrong about that and I can’t remember when sweets came off ration either but perhaps that was around ’52. But the basic things I can’t remember. Certainly there was still rationing when the Queen married the Duke of Edinburgh because Australia for example sent I think a lot of sultanas and currants, dried fruit for the Queen’s wedding cakes. I don’t know how many wedding cakes they had but more than one. But Commonwealth countries sent food for, for the royal wedding. After the war I can remember my mother being very excited when all of a sudden bananas became available and at the shop we got some tinned salmon. We didn’t sell fruit and vegetables. Just provisions. But my mother was very excited when we suddenly got some tinned salmon and she was very, I don’t know when that would have been. She was very eager for me to have a banana because apparently as a baby I’d liked bananas. But I don’t think we’d ever seen a banana during the war and so on the same day I tried a banana and some of this tinned salmon and I remember I was sick and my mother was very disappointed that I was sick because she thought this was going to be so exciting having these two things. AH: Were you sick because you didn’t like them or — ER: Yes. I didn’t have a banana for a long time afterwards. I think I’d, you know got into adulthood before I eventually tried another banana but I seem to remember I liked tinned salmon. I didn’t go off that. But we didn’t have tinned salmon very often in those days because I can remember this would be after the war when we had family Christmas parties. My mother would make some salmon, tinned salmon sandwiches and you know Christmas oh having these tinned salmon sandwiches that was quite a luxury. Yes. But of course now you can get every food you can think of all the year round can’t you? Nothing is a luxury these days. Yeah. AH: Do you remember what it was like getting off the train in London the first time after the war? ER: I loved it at King’s Cross. It was the smell of the engines and the whole atmosphere and the people and the bustle. It, you know would be so unusual to me and I was, felt really excited when we, when we got to King’s Cross and then from King’s Cross I think we went to Liverpool Street tube station and that and that’s when we would get the train out to Romford. I can’t remember how long that took but yes, King’s Cross. Very exciting. That certain smell of the engines. Yes. I can’t remember the railway station at Romford at all. No. AH: What about Cleethorpes? Did you catch the train from Cleethorpes? ER: Yes. Yes, I can remember Cleethorpes. The station it hasn’t altered all that much. Yes, getting the train from Cleethorpes. Yes. And back to Cleethorpes and my friends that come down from Knaresborough although sadly Mary won’t be coming this year because she died last year but Tim is coming. But over the thirty years that I’ve lived here Tim and Mary have come every year, sometimes twice a year to have a week with me and of course when they’re coming on the train from Knaresborough I meet them at Cleethorpes Station and it hasn’t really altered at all. No. So, quite a nice station really with being next to the promenade and the sea. Yes. Yeah. And of course going down to London after the war the train used to come to Louth. Not that I can remember. Thursby. That was another stop apparently and I think there were a few other stops on the way and somewhere which I looked out for there was a field which had a large model of a black and white cow in it. Where that was I don’t know but I always used to look out for that. And then when you approached and I imagine it’s still the same when you approach King’s Cross you went through seven tunnels before you got there. All of a sudden the lights would come on on the train and then it would be darkness and I remember counting the tunnels. Yeah. Train travel was quite nice in those days I think. Well, I can’t remember when I last went on a train. A few years back. But you sat in, sometimes you sat in a compartment with a table but sometimes where you sat on the seats facing each other and over each seat there was always a nice painting of a building or a garden or somewhere. It would be named you know. It would be a place that people would know. I often wonder what would have happened to all those paintings. It was really nice. Yeah. So anything else? AH: Did there come any refugees to Cleethorpes? Not refugees. Evacuees. Or refugees perhaps? ER: Oh. I can’t remember ever seeing any or knowing of any. I didn’t know them but my father had attended the Matthew Humberstone Boys School in Cleethorpes and one of his teachers and I think he was a German teacher, an English man, German teacher was called something like Mr Gayfor and he used to go to Germany on holiday. He was very friendly with [pause] I don’t know whether he was a teacher or a professor over there and I don’t know which part of Germany but I do remember not at the time but my parents saying now before war was declared Mr and Mrs Gayfor they hadn’t any children and his teacher friend over there asked if he could send his two daughters over here to England to be with the Gayfors. Now, whether they were a Jewish family I don’t know but and I never met them. I can vaguely remember Mr and Mrs Gayfor but by the time I would know them these girls would have, because I think they were teenagers and so by the time I knew the Gayfors they would have got careers. I don’t know whether they ever went back to Germany but I do seem to recall that both the girls were very clever and I think they went to university in England. So, I’ve forgotten about that until you said about refugees Anna. But of course I can remember the Russian prisoners of war in Cleethorpes. They I believe were stationed in Weelsby Woods, Grimsby and I was at Reynolds Street School. The street I was born in. The school was there and I remember looking out some windows at school. I don’t know how many there would have been, not a, not Italian but Russian soldiers marching down the street singing the, “Volga Boatmen,” and when they were coming we were obviously allowed to get to some window and see them. But you know there might have only been two dozen of them but they certainly marched and of course they used to go into the shop because by then Russia was on our side so they could walk around and they used to go into the shop and I remember my father talking about this. They used to buy vinegar because they could take it back to camp, boil it, I don’t know whether they boiled it with potato peelings or what they did but it was quite, quite intoxicating and they used to get drunk on it and my father said that some officer, British officer from the camp came around to all the grocery shops in Grimsby and Cleethorpes saying not to sell them vinegar. It wasn’t rationed you see. So [laughs] and my father said that one day one of these Russian soldiers had gone in and he couldn’t speak English and he was demonstrating something to my father and you know my father he was looking around the shop. Father was looking. My father suggested or showed him some things. So he, my father thought it was something he wanted for cooking and he took him across to the greengrocer’s opposite us but no it wasn’t anything there. I think my father had got it in mind that he wanted onions. I don’t know why. Anyway, the Russian went off and a bit later on he came back absolutely jubilant and it was a knife he wanted, a chopping knife and around the corner from us there was Ernest Houghton’s ironmonger’s shop so I think my father found that he’d seen that shop and he’d gone in there and [pause] But when the time came at the end of the war and they were going to be sent back to Russia they didn’t want to go because they said when they got back they would be shot because of Russia, you know well something to do with failing in the war as far as Germany was concerned and Stalin. I can’t I can’t quite, quite get my mind around all that but anyway I think they must have, there must have been some battle where the Russians hadn’t stood their ground and had been taken prisoner by the British and that was at a time when they were fighting with Germany. I’m not too sure when they, I think it was 1941 when Russia changed sides and came over to us but they didn’t want to go back and I remember my father talking about it. And then because them some of them gradually did or did know English and picked up on English and one of them had told my father this and I don’t know how long it would be. Probably ten fifteen years ago I heard something on the radio and they were talking about that. These Russians that were sent back who were going to be, who would be shot and I, well I don’t know enough about it but somehow they were blaming Harold Macmillan who was the Prime Minister. I can’t remember when. In the ‘60s I think. They were blaming Macmillan for having the, made the order that they had to go back. But that’s not something I’m too clear about so I perhaps shouldn’t be quoted on that one. So, but they were. My father said they were all very polite and they were always very polite to my mother when they came in and they would when they were leaving they would click their heels and give a little bow. Yeah. AH: What did the shop sell? ER: Pardon? AH: What did the shop sell? ER: Oh, butter, margarine, lard, bacon, sugar, cheese and then I think there were limited amounts of, oh eggs. Beans. Tins of beans. Whether they were Heinz or not I don’t know but there was, there was tinned stuff available but of course all on ration and I think tinned fruit would come eventually. I really am not sure how all that was allocated. It would depend on the number of customers you had registered with you and quite how all that would have worked out I’m not sure. But I think there was a lot of excitement when Spam came over from America [laughs] but yeah. Things were, things were there but in limited supply and I think the lard and the margarine and butter would come in great big square slabs and I can see my grandpa standing there in the shop with a knife and slicing it and then cutting it into what two ounces per person or whatever they were allowed to have and I do remember he was very good. He was always very precise. Years of practice. I don’t know what the cheese allocation was but yeah people survived on the rations. I can’t remember you know us ever feeling terribly hungry in the war but it was all just basic food. Fresh vegetables. We grew potatoes of course in the garden. All the salad stuff and we had fruit trees in the garden at Reynolds Street. Strawberries, raspberries and so you know pretty self-sufficient really and when I got grown up and grandma used to talk she said that as a child I was easy to feed because she said if she said to me, ‘What would you like for your tea, Ann?’ I invariably said beans on toast or pancakes. So, but again it’s what you get used to. Bread and jam of course you would have at teatime and just what you got used to. I can’t ever remember what I had for breakfast. I can’t remember about cereals but obviously I must have had something. AH: What about on your birthday? Do you remember? ER: Birthdays. No. I can’t really. I can’t really remember anything about birthdays very much. I’m sure my cousins who were in my age group would have been invited around. I can’t really remember about birthday parties. No. I can’t. I can’t seem [pause] I know Christmas in the war years. On Christmas Eve and after the war years as well but certainly during the war I remember on Christmas Eve we would, but I would have to be a bit older to be up, well not terribly late especially when I was at the Father Christmas stage but I do remember we used to go around to Bill’s mum. Auntie Peg’s. But on Christmas Day in the evening a lot of the family would come to us and certainly that must have been happening in the war years because my cousin Joan she was in the the WAAFs. She was at Binbrook. She was older than me. She was twelve years older than me and she was friendly with an airman out there. I think he was called Eric and Eric must have brought some silver strip like that. Long silver strip paper. What it was used for I don’t know and whether he should have brought it from the camp I don’t know but I remember in the hall my, my parents had got that sort of large V shapes fastened to the, to the wall and after [pause] so the family had been on Christmas day and then apparently the next day my parents suddenly realised that all this strip stuff had gone from the hall. I thought that was strange. When they got round to my auntie’s because we went round there on Boxing Day at some point when they got round to my auntie’s it was on their wall and Joan I think and probably my cousin Bill had taken it down at our house, taken it home and put it up on their their wall [laughs] and it took a while before my parents realised it had gone. So what that was used for in the RAF I don’t know. But yeah. I don’t know what happened to the boyfriend whether he survived the war or not. AH: Do you know what Joan did in Binbrook? ER: No. I don’t. It’s funny how you don’t know what these people did exactly but of course I’ve heard a lot of people say that when the men folk came back after the First World War and then the Second World War they didn’t talk about it. So a lot of people don’t know what their fathers did actually do abroad because they just wouldn’t talk about it. Wanted to forget it. So, so no, I don’t know. When Joan came out of the WAAFs I think she went to work, work for Lloyds Bank in Grimsby I think. And then she met Frank. He’d been in the RAF and they got married about 1947. But no, I honestly can’t remember Joan talking about it. And then of course after the war cousin Bill, cousin John another one then of course they went off to do their National Service which, and of course I don’t know when that stopped but right into the 1950s because my husband he did National Service. We were married in ’56 but he’d done National Service and I’ve thought about that quite a bit lately with all these yobboes on the streets who want to go around stabbing and shooting people. I thought it’s a pity there isn’t National Service because as I look back cousin Bill, John, Geoff and other young men who had done National Service all said that whilst it had been a bit of a shock to the system they’d enjoyed it. Looking back they’d enjoyed and I remember one young man, well he was an older man when he was telling me this, he said that he had been sent out to Hong Kong. He said he thinks that he and his parents had to look on the map and see where Hong Kong was exactly. But you see he said he would never have gone out to Hong Kong. Cousin Bill and cousin John they both had spells in Germany and yeah, I don’t think Geoff, my husband, I don’t think he went abroad but I know he said he’d enjoyed his National Service. So — AH: Do you know what your cousins did in Germany? ER: No. I don’t. No. I seem to think with cousin Bill it was something mechanical. It could have been something to do with tanks, repairs or something because he was good with cars. Cousin John, he eventually took up teaching and he became a headmaster. I would imagine John it would have been more of a clerical job but he was in the Air Force. He had a spell at Cranwell. I remember that. And Bill was in the Army. Oh, cousin Peter. He went into the Navy like his father had been in the Navy in the war. Peter, when he left school he went into the Navy and had a career in the Navy until he retired. But he died. All the cousins have all gone. I’m the only one left out of lots of cousins apart from my cousin John’s widow and she lives in Beverley and we text each other. I haven’t. Cousin John and Betty came here when I moved here thirty-two years ago. They came twice. They were living at Barton-on-Humber but they had three children and when any of their youngsters were moving house John and Betty were always very involved in putting in new bathrooms, kitchens and decorating. So their visits to me became less. Less frequent. So eventually it was just talking on the telephone. John died about three years ago but Betty and I have kept in touch which is nice. She is around my age and she likes snooker so when snooker is on she’s watching up there in Beverly, I’m watching here and we’re communicating with text messages [laughs] but I’ve never really discussed the war with Betty so I don’t know. She was a Cleethorpes girl so she will have some memories. I’ll try and think on to, when I’m actually talking to her I’ll try to think on to ask her what she can remember. Or what she can remember her parents telling her or what John’s parents might have said. I can’t remember what John’s father did in the war though. I haven’t a clue. But I do remember after the war he worked for, I think it was there was a petrol company National Benzole. I think he worked for them. He was good with cars. Always enjoying. So was Uncle Tom. They were always with cars. They seemed to get more pleasure from taking the engine out as you could in those days and tinkering and putting it back then they ever actually got from going out and driving the car [laughs] The cars were always in bits. But again that’s all after the war — AH: Were there any evacuees from London? Any children? ER: Not that I knew of. There must have been. Well, I say there must have been. Whether the Lincolnshire coast area would have been considered safe I don’t know. I can’t remember hearing any children from Cleethorpes being evacuated. Oh yes. Yeah, one family. Yes. He’s died though. The son. A couple of years back. But I do remember him saying, excuse me, that his grandfather had suggested that, I don’t know what his father did in the war but anyway they were in Cleethorpes but his grandfather suggested the family should go over and live with him in the Blackpool area as being safer and they did go. But I don’t know whether they weren’t happy there but I remember Dennis saying that they came back to Cleethorpes but I don’t recall them suffering from bomb damage but I didn’t really know them too well during the war years. So no. So I can’t remember hearing apart from those two girls coming from Germany I can’t remember hearing of anyone who had evacuees or anyone being evacuated. I don’t think my parents would have been happy to have had me evacuated and I probably wouldn’t have wanted to go but then who knows. Maybe I would have just taken it in my stride. So no. We were all young people. We were all at home. I’m trying to think of anything else I can remember. I’m sure it’s the fate of people who you know I’m eighty-eight and there will be people three or four years older than me who will remember a lot more but unfortunately [pause] Oh, I was going to say I don’t know anyone older than me [laughs] but of course there’s Norman Rutherford. He lived around the corner from us. We were in Reynolds Street. His, my grandma knew the Rutherfords and so did Bill’s mum Auntie Peg. Norman Rutherford is, it will be his birthday in a week or two’s time and I think he’ll be ninety-four so he will have some memories. His father was a skipper. Had his own trawler. I must ask Norman. I speak to him fairly regularly. I’ll ask him because if he’s got some really good memories. He came over just a fortnight ago to see me and Ann Burden came as well. Did I tell you about Ann? Yes. So Norman is driving again now because he had to stop. AH: I’m just going to pause for a minute. ER: Yes do. [interview paused] AH: What did you do after the war? ER: Well, I went on to the Girl’s Grammar School and I was there until, it would have been 1952 [pause] ’51 ’52 and then I felt my parents were under quite a lot of the pressure at the shop. It was quite a large shop. It was a nice shop and we were very busy and once I got old enough at school at weekends and school holidays I would go and help in the shop. My grandfather wasn’t in very good health. There was my grandma at home. My mother’s mother. Well, my father’s father, Grandpa Sheardown was living with us then and my mother’s mother had stayed with us after the war and I always had the feeling that my parents were under a lot of pressure workwise and they never got a holiday and so eventually I wouldn’t say there was pressure put on me. But eventually I did make the decision that I would go into the shop which I did and it enabled my grandfather to take life easier and it also enabled my mother and father to have a day off together. Looking back I think my parents really never got any private time to themselves. At the house there was always grandma, grandpa, me. At the shop there was grandpa. So it did mean that a Tuesday which was a quieter day at the shop grandpa and I could manage the shop on a Tuesday and my father was very fond of horse racing and it, it meant that he and my mother could go off for the day say if they got, he’d got a car by then, they could go off for the day say up to York or Lincoln if there was a meeting. But they could go off and have a day at the races. So we did that. And then I got married in ’56 and then let me just think. Geoff and I moved to Lincoln in ’60 I think. Anyway, my father, grandpa had died, grandma had died so it left my parents. So anyway, my father he’d had the shop modernised and because otherwise it was you know the old shelving and wooden floor. You know typical grocery shop of that early era and, but he could see the advent of supermarkets. He said that things were going to change rapidly. So he gave up the business and he rented the shop out. So then after a short while they decided that they would leave Cleethorpes and go and live in the country and they went to North Somercotes to live. My father chose that village because it had got a doctors’ and some shops and a dental practice. So if, and they’d also got a bus route if he, well they, couldn’t drive. They both could drive. So they went there to live and then of course I was moving around with Geoff until my children got old enough and then I got the job in the Art Gallery and the Pump Room Museum in Harrogate and Knaresborough Castle and Museum which I absolutely loved. Yeah. It was good. Yes. So, so I had I think I had about ten years working there and then Geoff and I separated and I sold the house. He said that I could have the house so I sold the house and came back to Lincolnshire to live. Here I am thirty-two years later. So, so that’s it. Not a terribly exciting life really but a nice life I feel. I mean although the marriage broke up it didn’t distress me unduly because for a long time we’d been going our separate ways and so when Geoff told me, is that still on by the way? [laughs] Oh. AH: Sorry — ER: Pardon? AH: I just wanted to check what the shop was called. ER: Pardon? AH: Your shop. What was it called? ER: Oh, Sheardown’s. Yes. Yes. Quite a long time ago because eventually my mother did sell it when my father had died and a hairdresser has it now which I’ve never been in because it’s a big shop for an upstairs as well. So it’s a big place for a hairdressing salon unless they’ve made living accommodation above but sometimes I think if I ring well I don’t go to Cleethorpes very often but I’ve thought sometimes I would quite like to see it. But when they had it decorated some years back it was apparently in the Grimsby Evening Telegraph that when they’d taken some white paint off the front above the big shop windows there was the writing, “Sheardown and Sons.” Yes. So I guess that’s got painted over but it is still there. Yes. So, yeah. So — AH: Well, thank you very much. ER: Perhaps you could eliminate the bit I was saying — Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Elizabeth Ann Rogers Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Anna Hoyles Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-05-01 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 01:32:48 Audio Recording Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ARogersEA240501 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Great Britain England--Lincolnshire England--Cleethorpes England--London Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Civilian Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julie Williams Claire Campbell Carolyn Emery Requires A related resource that is required by the described resource to support its function, delivery, or coherence. Elizabeth grew up in Cleethorpes during the war. Her parents managed a general food store so she recalls the rationing and helping her parents count the coupon every Sunday. She recalls a bombing attack on the town which blew in the windows of her house. Russian prisoners of war came into her shop. She recalls being told about the dangers of butterfly bombs. She met an ex-prisoner of the Japanese who told her of his suffering. Description An account of the resource Elizabeth's earliest memories include the family’s Anderson shelter, later replaced by a Morrison shelter where she slept during air raids. She recalls the sound of planes overhead and the impact of nearby bombings, including shattered windows and flying debris. Despite these dangers, Elizabeth never felt afraid as war simply became part of daily life. Elizabeth’s family ran a grocery shop in Cleethorpes, and her father, unable to serve, joined the Special Constabulary. Elizabeth helped count ration coupons and remembers the strict warnings about butterfly bombs: 'Don’t pick up anything in the street. Not even a matchstick.' She describes the presence of Russian POWs in Cleethorpes, their polite demeanour, and their fear of returning home. Food was basic but sufficient, with homegrown vegetables and fruit. She recalls beans on toast and pancakes as childhood favourites. Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1939 1945 bombing childhood in wartime home front prisoner of war shelter Victory over Japan Day (15 August 1945) https://ibccdigitalarchive.omeka.net/files/original/1451/56190/MMarsdenJ1591984-250707-03.pdf fae271306c40fd0330734b0918564b7b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Marsden, Jack J Marsden Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-10-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Marsden, Jack Description An account of the resource 89 items. The collection concerns Jack Marsden (1591984 Royal Air Force) and contains documents, objects and photographs. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 166 Squadron and was shot down 3/4 May 1944. The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Janet Marsden and catalogued by Barry Hunter. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Commemoration 5 Mai 2010 Description An account of the resource The commemoration covers Jack Marsden's escape in June 1944, assisted by villagers from Courboin. A second part of the commemoration is a tale about Gaston Charruet who was caught by the Germans for assisting a British airman as witnessed by a child at the time. The commemoration is in his honour. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Michel Hallard Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-04-20 Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1944-07 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. France France--Château-Thierry Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Civilian Royal Air Force Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Text. Memoir Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Nine printed sheets Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MMarsdenJ1591984-250707-03 Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending text-based transcription Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive childhood in wartime evading Resistance https://ibccdigitalarchive.omeka.net/files/original/3004/55296/PWilliamsJR2501.jpg 831a5b0365744094ffebf48d4495f5b9 https://ibccdigitalarchive.omeka.net/files/original/3004/55296/AWilliamsR250707.mp3 d34d8e02b14e5cd4e86d7b8fe0cb5050 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Williams, James Raphael Jimmy Williams Description An account of the resource 40 items. The collection concerns James Raphael Williams (b. 1918 or1920, 716832 Royal Air Force) and contains an interview with his son, Rudolf Williams, documents, objects, clippings, and photographs. James Raphael Williams served as a radio and radar mechanic and later worked for British Telecom. The collection was loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Rudolf Williams and catalogued by Barry Hunter. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-07-07 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Williams, JR Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document DE: This is an interview with Rolf Williams about his father, Jimmy Williams. It is the 7th of July 2025 and we’re at the University of Lincoln. So Rolph, can you just tell me a little bit about, about your father? RW: Yeah [laughs] yes. He was born in Trinidad back in 1920 we think and he had two brothers. One of them died quite young tragically and so it was him and his other brother Patrick. We think his parents were from India but I don’t know the family name and they had come to Trinidad and then he was born in Belmont which is a part of Port of Spain on the northwest side of Trinidad. It seems he had quite a tough upbringing in that his mother for some reason disowned the two boys and put them in an orphanage and that for an amount of time that he never specified he was in the orphanage. It was a Catholic orphanage and the townsfolk would bring food for them to eat but the nuns wouldn’t give it to the kids. So he had quite an awful time and when I last saw him because he passed away in 2003 of cancer in a hospice in North London on the side of my secondary school oddly enough he was he was in good spirits and I was chatting to him and then he said, ‘Well, is there anything you want to ask, son?’ And I said, ‘Well, yes. You know. What, those years we don’t really know about you know. What happened when you were in the orphanage?’ And he just started crying. Now, my dad was quite a stoic chap and you know that wasn’t really his way. So we guess it was quite awful and I suspect they were abused in some way and so that, and I say that only because that really shaped his whole outlook on life which was to be secure and he would always say to have a roof over your head. He [pause] so when he came out of the orphanage I think he was on the streets of Trinidad and not sure what he was doing especially. He seemed to be a schoolteacher at some point he spoke of because that’s referred to by his colleagues often that he liked teaching. And that his treat at the end of the week was to buy one teaspoon full of Carnation condensed milk and that was a big deal. So that, that’s how he started and so when the war broke out so it’s all a bit of a grey area. He said that the war was the best thing that ever happened to him because Trinidad was absolutely vital to the defence of the Panama Canal and the Battle of the Caribbean 1942-43, four hundred ships were sunk in the region. Seventy percent of all the shipping sunk in the Atlantic was around there and I hadn’t realised until I started researching him quite that Trinidad was at sort of the epicentre of it and the West Indies providing bauxite for aluminium to build the aircraft and fruit, bandages. There was a whole range of resources that were supporting the war effort and Trinidad was kind of an oiling depot. The American aircraft carriers trained offshore to the west in the bay and so it was all happening in Trinidad. And so for my father he said that a US Army captain gave him his first job signing out tools to the men building the wherever he was. Now, there were quite a lot of different parts to the military infrastructure in Port of Spain and I realise some of the Naval bases actually north of it and so I don’t quite know which bit of where that was it was happening. He talks about HMS Benbow which was I think a torpedo patrol station so he might have been there for a bit but basically that was his first job. They trusted him to do this and so on his uniform in the photographs and in our personal possessions now we have this little E for Excellence badge which it appears the RAF were always happy for him to wear on his uniform and this seemed to mean really a lot to him. Almost more than his Defence and War Medal that he got and I think that’s because during those several years he, you know that gave him an income. It gave him his first security and I think for him that military way, knowing you’ve got a roof over your head, that just fitted with him. It worked for him and the company that was awarded the E for Excellence which was, they were given by the US government to the top five percent of industries that were supporting the war effort particularly well. I suppose that gave him that sense of pride that he was making a difference and I realise now that all around him a lot would have been going on. So a substantial number of Americans were brought in to manage all of this to the point there were some tensions in Trinidad that they had taken over the joint. So, but for him it worked and it seems some time around the beginning of the war then he joined The Royal Air Force Volunteers, Auxiliary. They, because they were West Indians, and all the West Indies weren’t called up and I’d always assumed my dad was just called up to the war because it was part of the British Empire but no, they volunteered. So now I’m particularly amazed to think either how bad were things or his sense of duty which he always had to see all of this going on with this war and that it was on his doorstep and stuff was sunk just offshore by the Germans. The U-boats were there. For him to volunteer to the Air Force of all things is really enormously significant because they would have known in the beginning of the war that it wasn’t going well and your odds of survival were slim and also it would mean convoying across to the UK. So he appears to have joined up. When I’m not sure. But there is this one image of him at Piarco which is now the International Airport which was then a Naval Air Station and it’s this one picture we have but in it are at least seven other young men with him who are named and identifiable who through your research we know which ship came across, they came across to the UK. That was 1941 and one of them is photographed with Ulric Cross who’s the most famous and decorated Trinidadian who flew Mosquito Pathfinders. And so the fact that fellow in the picture with my dad was with Ulric Cross in Britain shows that those others came over at that time and my dad was there but he didn’t. So I think that was because and this seemed to be the case with West Indians they weren’t trusted to be their own pilots and fly aircraft but to be a navigator, that worked. So those who flew tended to be in that role as Ulric was. But I think my father not having had a sound education at that time wasn’t clever enough so although he’s there with them in ’41 he’s not actually called up until ’44. So I think those intervening years he was at the Naval base seeing it all happen. So he’s finally called up and one of the reasons then that he didn’t come over was that there weren’t enough ships available to bring the West Indians over. So then they finally secured a vessel which was the Esperance Bay. So I think he took the SS Cuba, was a ship that collected West Indians through up to Newport News in Virginia. He always talked about that so again to think that this would have been a very short period of a few days when they were all assembled to start their convoy and yet of the few things he talked about that, that was one. So I think that was that time. It must have really dawned on him that he was going to war because there would have been lots of other West Indians with him there. Shall I keep going? DDE: Yeah. Yeah. You are doing fantastically. That’s brilliant. RW: Okay. So, yeah. So, so having looked up and now that actually that is the International Airport up in Virginia at Newport News. Yes. That resonates why and I think it was it would have dawned on him then that given so few Trinidadians joined up suddenly he’s surrounded by a thousand other West Indians and, and then they board their ship and over they come. So being able to determine by his arrival date with the Air Force in the UK which convoy he was on and from that the vessel and there were three troopships in that convoy. But he always spoke of the fact that shortly after setting off the ship broke down and they all thought they were dead because they were dead in the water. The U-boats were there and looking up the records in the Esperance Bay sure enough she gets into Liverpool and then she had her own deep maintenance period because the engines and that. So the fact that they managed to get it going again is quite something. But you can imagine the uncertainty bobbing around and the convoy left them behind and then to catch up they were full speed and he described the sea sickness and how horrific it was. You can imagine a thousand guys on this ship and that he slept on the upper deck. Well, in those days it would still take them what three or four weeks to cross the Atlantic so, so his war started with, and a thing I find about war stories is there is so much suffering like that that is just passed off because in the big scheme of things that then seems belittled. But the thought to me, being an ex-Navy person of four weeks on a ship throwing my guts up I know what it feels like. That would have been bad enough. So this strange thing that they’re going to war but actually the relief of arriving in Liverpool and when you see the photographs from the arrival of the Esperance Bay with the first one thousand West Indians. They looked jolly happy to be here. DE: Yeah. Yeah. RW: Because that was the first bullet dodged and then they all went to Filey. To RAF Hunmanby. DE: Yeah. RW: Which was the old Butlins camp and he did his basic training there. And he described how when all the West Indians got on to the ship they all organised themselves out into the islands they’d come from. DE: Okay. RW: By dialect. DE: Right. RW: So the Jamaicans with Jamaicans, the St Lucians, whoever and all the Trinidadians and then when they got to Hunmanby they realised oh, we’re all just black West Indians so suddenly they were all of one. So there was this strange sort of West Indian racism and then kind of got here and then it was like oh actually, no, we’ve got to stick together. So they were the first thousand and then another group I know were brought shortly after but not as many. So he was in that first batch and his name popped up on some of the Memorials. So from there I think that was their basic training. He never spoke much of it and I’ve not found evidence of him in any of the pictures yet but I’m sure there must be one. He was very dashing. He always wore his hair very smart and again I just think the security and the routine worked for him. He was a very conscientious person always by nature and a perfectionist. And so from there he was selected for Radio School training and so his service record is as I’m sure as anyone else who has tried to study one is just a bunch of meaningless numbers to start with. DE: Three letter acronyms. RW: Yeah. And it was difficult to know but we’ve now figured out that he, he went to RAF Egginton which I think, well was the RAF secret alternate headquarters out of London. If London was destroyed then Egginton so it was and it was the main switchboard for the RAF. Everything went through there. So he did basic, I think radio training there. He then went to RAF Yatesbury to do similar. I think that was the Radio School and then to Cosford. So because this was late in the war it seems most of what he was doing during the war was actually learning how to be a radio fitter and radar mechanic and that then he qualified in that and then that’s what he was doing and he was sent to RAF Hendon and then they moved up to just south of Cambridge. He was at another. It wasn’t Duxford. It was the other one. I can’t remember what it was called right now. So I think that’s most of what he was doing and he wasn’t flying during the war but he always spoke very passionately of the Lancaster, the Lancastrian. As a young kid I remember him always trying to explain to me how that was the civilian version of the Lancaster because we grew up in North London. We were on the flight path of RAF Northolt. DE: Right. Yeah. RW: So the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight and the Queen’s Flight and a lot of other kit was always flying over our house. So that gave him reason to talk about it and for us to kind of fall in love with these aircraft from a very young age because it was literally straight over us and sort of on the north end. So Lancastrians and the York. DE: Yeah. RW: And I think they were all then based at Hendon until they moved. It all got a bit too big and then they moved. Moved up to, to Cambridge way. So his service record then says that he did get his brevet. That he was flying. My brother remembers more. My brother is older than me that he said he was in C-47s, Dakotas which he always loved and spoke a lot of. My brother thinks he was flying to Belfast for some reason. So whether there was some shuttle route or it wasn’t. It was all too early for the Berlin Airlift and so forth but he definitely was doing something with those. But he spoke of Mosquitos too and I think they were for a while at Hendon. I think Hendon had a lot of American influence and then also the RAF. So it’s all a bit, he didn’t really talk in much detail about what he was doing but that’s, that’s sort of as much as we know now. But what really kind of played true to what he said in the beginning that the war was the best thing that ever happened for him was that then and I find this strange 1948 he is suddenly discharged. So, his, his term of commitment came up. I think ’47 there is a reference and then ’48 the RAF sent a lot of the West Indians home. So again by the dates and through your guys and your research I discover that yes they all went together. A lot of them left on the same ship. It was from Southampton and it was the Windrush. DE: Yes. RW: And that the Windrush sailed him home and he literally the day he got off in Port of Spain those first immigrants or emigrants to the UK were getting on board the Windrush and she then went and collected everyone else and came back into London. So from what an amazing sort of passing on the gangway that he had decided he would go home. DE: Yeah. RW: They had decided they were better off in the UK and he said it took him a week to realise that actually the same was true for him. But when we now look at, we found in his belongings his UK sort of registration papers it was a month. But definitely within a month he realised his future was in the UK. I remember him telling me he only took, when he went home he took his tools with him because he thought, ‘Well, I’ll do something similar in Trinidad,’ and he brought them all back again and he very quickly oh [pause] and in the last year, 1947 the Royal Air Force sent him to the North London Polytechnic where they had a Radar and Radio School set up so they’d recognised that they were building on his expertise and invested in him. That’s why I thought was funny that they sent him home. DE: Yeah. RW: Because they’d invested in all of that and then sent him home. Well, he came back and it seems almost instantly he got a job with the GPO. The General Post Office. He had a very good friend called Peter Grant who we’ve not researched who was in, he met in the Royal Air Force who was Ukrainian and Peter Grant, they stayed in touch for years. I think his wife is still alive. He went to America and apparently what happened was AT&T were looking for these radio experts post-war and his friend Peter said, ‘Why don’t you come with me to the States? AT&T will give us a job.’ But it was in the south and my father being aware of the racism down there chose not to. So Peter Grant went to AT&T, worked for them for the rest of his life and my father was with the GPO. He very quickly ended up at Dollis Hill Research Establishment working on short wave radio and microwave radio systems and after five years I think going on to, ’56 or therearound he was promoted out of there. I think into London to Head Office. He married the same year and he basically became an electronic engineer and he worked on the microwave communication system which, which was our way of beaming television line of sight all the way up through the country. But also I now find out had a quite an important Cold War use to it as well which I had never known. He didn’t mention that. So he, there’s reference made in his promotion speech from Dollis Hill to the computer. He often told us that they had one of the first computers in the world. DE: Yeah. RW: Got there and it was the size of a room and, and this was all part of this system. So he was up and down the GPO Tower in London and Birmingham and standing on hills around the country with balloons at the height of the Radio Tower so an artist could paint it in. And this was his job so that in the end I think BT were like, ‘You’ve done a cracking job.’ His role was simply to travel around the country meeting members of the armed forces or the emergency services to rent out space on those towers for their communication systems which meant he knew the country inside out, back to front. He just went everywhere. He never drove himself. He always had a driver and he spoke how, because he was important to those people they would arrive and they would assume Mr Williams was the driver because he sounded like an Englishman and because he looked dark they’d assume that he was the chauffeur and that he always got a real kick out of then saying, ‘I’m Mr Williams and actually you’ll be doing business with me today.’ So he, that kind of racist thing, and the Air Force of course in the war did break the mould in trying to be more inclusive. The Navy found ways to avoid it and so the RAF were trying to sort of lead the way but he never really complained particularly of racism but subtly sort of here and there you see how it was influencing his choices and what he was doing all the way through. Even to being one of the few sort of minorities in BT as it became at the time — DE: Yeah. RW: Doing what he did. So he retired after forty years and that forty years or thirty eight years it’s evident that takes him right back to 1948 when he came back from Trinidad and that was his life. So despite all of that if he got up in the morning in his little middle class semi-detached house in London he’d tip his slippers out to make sure there wasn’t a scorpion or something in them. He never got out of that habit. He always said, ‘You need to have a roof over your head son.’ He, I think was always nervous that all he had he could lose just like that. As I say he never talked about his early years really and, and the war he seemed to have about the best of time he could of it. I believe Hendon took a hit during the war from a bomb but I think he sort of avoided the worst of that. However, he would have been aware being in the RAF kind of what, what was was happening. DE: Yeah. RW: And who wasn’t around. And so once he retired he was one of those sadly who really didn’t know what, he didn’t do much with himself because I think he defined himself by his work and what he did and so few people understood what he did. I think even my mother and even us if you start and try and describe it. But he talked about Gee and Oboe. I remember those words as a child which were the radar systems. The first H2S I don’t remember but he was always kind of doodling trying to explain how radio waves worked. So he was passionate about it and he clearly although some of his early reports, papers and results didn’t look great he definitely for someone who came from no education he really achieved something and BT had enormous respect for him and, and the war did that for him and for us. DE: Yeah. Fantastic. Can I just go back on a couple of things? You briefly spoke when he was at the place where he made the model P-38. RW: Yes. DE: Can you talk a little bit about that and do you know why he made a P-38 model? RW: Again, what I’ve realised with a lot of what my dad spoke about was the little stories he said. There was normally a connection. This was what my learning from researching my father’s past was I guess many other people might conclude the same. That if he said it it wasn’t random. There were so many war stories you could share but for him it didn’t mean general history. There was a connection. So he always wanted to tell me about the Battle for the River Plate and the Graf Spee and then the reason was that there was this image that we still need to find that he’d seen HMS Ajax in repair after the battle in Port of Spain. So again I suppose that would have been quite impressionable to suddenly see this massive warship that was brutally beaten up as evidence of the Germans. At that point he may have never seen the German Navy but seen what it could do. So he had a thing about the P-38, isn’t it? The Lightning. DE: Yeah. RW: I mean it’s unusual as a twin boom aircraft anyway. But I don’t know where, why, whether he, whether, I haven’t studied, were they in at Hendon? Did he see them somewhere? But looking at the workmanship on it he was always very proud that he had designed the Lightning bolt base and chromed it himself and the rest is carved from Bakelite. But and I assumed because now you can buy these metal moulded aircraft that, that perhaps was provided and his job was to make the base. But when I look at some of the tooling on the aircraft I think actually he probably poured that as well and shaped it. So I don’t know whether this was just general workmanship kind of a workshop class they had but that’s sort of the idea I’m getting. That they wanted them to have some basic skills. Can you shape metal? Can you shape Bakelite? Make something. And that he chose to do that and then typical to my father that I think he had such little reward he was very caught up all his life about being recognised for what you do. I think he always felt unrecognised and I think again that was more based from his childhood because in his career he was. So he scratched in the bottom what it is. He was always very keen to, you know, I want you to know I did this. So he scratched in the bottom then that it’s that aircraft. It’s north. He’s put the date, 1947 so I think that’s what that was about but, but he didn’t explain whether it was skills they were teaching them because they might just need to be good at. But he then went on to put all the electrics in our house and put the plumbing in and God knows you know nearly blew himself up a few times under the stairs fiddling. He, he wore glasses in the end and luckily because something flashed and then he found after all these melted bits of copper on the, on the lenses of his glasses. DE: Crikey. RW: Which he was fascinated by. So he had this kind of curious scientific mind but it was mate you could have, that was you blind, you know. DE: Yeah. RW: But he just thought you just get on and do it practically and the whole road everyone was calling on his services. So again you could see how it had, it had given these, given him these skills that were life skills that he used thereafter. DE: Yeah. I need to check. I think they used Lightnings, I think they did radio and radar stuff in them so — RW: Ah, that would, yeah. DE: That’s something to look at. So, I also wanted to ask you about, you know your mother and how her and your father met and your mother’s story. RW: Yes. It’s similarly, I mean, the war. So this is the thing about the war is it was, it was everything wasn’t it? So if the whole spectrum of the story be absolute tragedy to absolute joy and for her it was yeah quite a mixed bag in so far as she was, her original [pause] So she was born in Frankfurt. I think, what year? She was eleven around the middle of the war, nineteen, she was ten years, so 1930. She would have been born about 1930. Ten years younger than my father. I believe her real father, father’s name was Hamburger and that he was very senior German running the railway network. And the immediate question people would say well then he must have been a Nazi and I don’t know but he left my mother’s mother and then my mother’s mother put her up for adoption very young. At the age of two or three. She says she remembers. She was born in Munich. Sorry, this is still in Munich. She said, isn’t it remarkable? What do you remember of a two or three year old? But she says she remembers being taken to the zoo by her real mother, being handed over to her adoptive mother and her having no qualms about that whatsoever. She remembers it happening and I’ve been to Munich Zoo with my mother and it was strange to walk around thinking this is kind of how it started. So then her adoptive mother lived in Frankfurt and so her adoptive father was sent to the Russian Front and he became a prisoner of war. So for most of the war my mother and her adoptive mother lived in their little farm which was a vineyard in a place called Berkersheim which is outside Frankfurt and they had a manager, Rudolph [unclear] who I’m named after who helped to run the business for them. And it became apparent years later that her father on the Eastern Front when the war ended the Russians didn’t release them for a long time. But that he had a mistress and he wanted to keep it secret of course and he also then wanted to get shot of his wife, my mother’s adoptive mother so he accused this man Rudolph [unclear] of having an affair with his wife and he was thrown into prison. And this was actually, I think this was still during the war. My mother had to take him food parcels to the bars of the prison while he was in prison and none of this was true. The war ended and my mother explains and I think we have some of it I’ve recorded on a phone interview during Covid the Polish prisoners of war [pause] yes, they had Polish prisoners of war working on this vineyard. Then rebelled and were taking some of the Germans and shooting them against the trees in the orchards and it was all very dangerous. So she talks about this chaotic time at the end of the war. The villagers turned against them because they believed that her mother had had this affair. So her dog was shot by the villagers. Rudolph [unclear] was like a Del Boy character. Larger than life and very authoritative. So in the end they did end up all living together and in the end yeah she, her mother and Rudolph yeah they were like my grandparents. But there was a point because food was short where my mother had pet rabbits and then that Sunday dinner was delicious and they’d eaten the pet rabbit and I think that was a common story at the time. But it took years for the real story to come out and actually later on in my mother’s life where the villagers in Berkersheim were then apologising because they’d realised going right back it was a sort of EastEnders story. So, I think my mother, so she was in Frankfurt. The war had ended. She talks about the German retreat. They blew up the bridge and when you look at the map of Berkersheim you can see that the Americans arrived and she talks of opening the front door and seeing an American tank with a black face. The first ethnic minority person she’d seen but couldn’t talk to them because they were rolling through. They were rolling through but they were friendly and it was like gosh. She had, she had no schooling as a result. The train was bombed out so they would go to school on the train with no windows but then they were strafed by fighters so that was all too dangerous. Her piano lessons she had to stop because of this attack and, and she tells the story which you can hear in her own words of the day she was roller-skating. So she also I think, very little schooling. She’d got a job as a telegraphist I think in Frankfurt but I think also and this is important my mother actually had a learning impairment. I think, you know she was neurodiverse. We would understand about this now. DE: Yeah. RW: But I think my mum cognitively struggled with certain types of learning anyway which would have made her life difficult. But she was very driven like her mother and her stepfather and decided to come to England to be an au pair girl. Which she did. So aged eighteen. Now part of her feistiness was she was in a rowing team in Frankfurt and she talks about nearly dying. A lightning bolt hit the water and she was swimming in the river, in the River Mein and a lightning bolt nearly killed her and the rest of her life she was terrified of lightning but she was always go, get it. Go get it. So you can imagine having a German accent, coming over here in the early 50s and she worked for a Jewish family in near Golders Green, North London when we were living near there and so she was walking the children in Primrose Hill and my father was with his mates playing cricket. So my father would have been working for the Post Office by then and I guess he might, yes he would have still been at Dollis Hill which was nearby so it was sort of North London. Hendon. Mill Hill way. And they met in the park and that’s how, six months it took. So she took him to Germany. She met the family there and they got married in Germany and, and then we all came along. So my dad again, very organised. He chose where we lived by where the good schools were which was North London so on the flightpath of Heathrow which was why we all grew up loving aircraft again. As well as Northolt and, and so our German grandparents, or step grandparents would come and visit. So Rudolph [unclear] it then transpired and I remember less than my brother explained that he was an anti-aircraft gunner and that he was on the Mӧhne Dam the night of the raid and that he would often when he told the story because he was that kind of bullish fellow I mean to the point at Christmas you go to the butchers and there would be a British queue and he would walk past all of them straight up the front and be served and the poor butcher wouldn’t argue. Yeah. Because he was huge, a shock of white hair and he just was that assertive. So he was still very upset that people didn’t recognise the numbers of people who died in the flooding which really does suggest he wasn’t just, because in other ways I can imagine making up the story just to wind us up but that really kind of suggested he was there and he would say, ‘Oh, you’re bigging up your squadron guys and your Lancasters but you know thousands of people died.’ So I think he was there and that said my brother reminded me though that he was a great mimic and that he could do a word-perfect impersonation of Hitler. Always had done and had actually been reprimanded in the German Army and I think moved or punished by being moved or disranked or something for doing that at the time. For, for making the joke out of Hitler. So when he wasn’t doing that he also I know was smuggling in oranges and he was, he was like Walker from, “Dad’s Army.” So he always had fingers in pies. He had the gift of the gab and, and he was entrepreneurial so he made their war as comfortable as possible by doing all of that. And he was a scary chap. So even as a child I was quite scared of him and actually sadly towards the end he had a right go at me once when we went to visit him. He was ill. Went with my mother and I got him on a bad day and he, I blanked it actually so he must have really had a right go at me about something I did that you know was immaterial and my mother gave him a right talking to. Apparently, she told me she went in, ‘You don’t talk to my son like that.’ You know. Put him in his place because then he was old. He’d smoked like a trooper. Bronchitis. But he went on for years you know but he was grumpy and gruff but again you could see that kind of survival instinct. I mean what they’d been through. And so, so that was him. And so my mother however living in Finchley our neighbours were Jewish. She explains she was always, she always had to know if she was meeting someone are they Jewish. Are they Jewish? And she had a weird way of speaking so then it would be oh the Jewish lady up the road like and you just wouldn’t say that now would you? DE: No. RW: ‘It's the Jewish lady.’ And dare I say it I think, and she suffered and she cried when I interviewed her, you know. She said she has felt guilty all her life for being German and she never lost her accent and she felt so British and she studied British history and she was so knowledgeable about this country and proud of this country but couldn’t shake the German accent unlike my father who you’ll hear sounded like, you know Queen’s English. And she felt ashamed because of this de-Nazification and that she was taken as a young girl to the cinema with her fellow pupils to see the films of Auschwitz because the policy was that all Germans should feel responsible for what happened. Not just those who did and the Nazis. It was believed they should. They were all accountable for it and that absolutely affected her and made her life so difficult and she spoke and she speaks. You’ll hear during Covid she says, ‘You know, here I am now and who are the people who are looking after me and coming to check on me? They’re the Jewish people.’ And she said and she’s never and she said, ‘I’ve never had a bad experience.’ But underneath that I believe, dare I say it but she wouldn’t forgive me for saying it I think was a very deep-seated anger. A kind of this, this anger at the Jews for making her feel guilty when actually of course it wasn’t the Jews who did it it was, it was our government and the de-Nazification process. But you can see how in human nature the minute somebody says they’re Jewish she has to be reminded and is dealing with this pain and then she’d resent that. So it was this. She had lots of wonderful Jewish friends and it was fine and it almost seemed immaterial what their religious beliefs were and yet at the same time underneath was it would always be a problem for her and, and that’s so sad, you know. And it was so that she also then would break down into tears talking about that. The guilt. And she couldn’t, at work, the de-Nazification whoever thought that was a good idea it worked for them with her because yes she lived with that guilt to the day she died. She felt somehow responsible and yet she says, ‘But we were only children. We didn’t know.’ She said, ‘There were no men left in the village anyway. They’d all gone to the war. There were no male teachers. We didn’t know what was happening. Communications broke down,’ she said, so they didn’t really know what was happening in the war. They were I guess like many Germans it was, it was kept a secret from them but she had noticed how it was thinning out in class. Yeah. Places were getting emptier and sort of half aware that it’s all getting a little bit less busy in town but not really understanding that these people were being taken away. So she really struggled with that. So you have this strange, not strange, that’s what it was. My father, the best thing that happened for him. His big loss was his brother dying suddenly. I think he drowned or something in Trinidad. You know for him that was the big loss that we know of but it brought him to Europe. It gave him his education. It gave him a career. It gave him the security he needed. For my mother it was really disruptive like for so many German children but to both their credit and this is the thing isn’t it where some people dig deep and they made the best of it and they really did and to them it was just normal isn’t it? So when you talk to people who had been through that they had few choices and they don’t see the brilliance of how they handled it successfully. To them it seemed the obvious thing. Go to Britain. Right. Go back to Trinidad. No. Stay in Britain. Do this. Work hard. To my father it was always work hard, study, you need [pause] So I worked in the Arts in the end. He saw no value in that. He made my, he paid for it in the end. I mean bless him so he made my life hell for being an artist and wanting to follow the Arts right up to the point though that he still sent me to university and, you know he didn’t impede it whereas my mother was Germany’s second best milliner for her age. A hatmaker. And then her real father when he disowned her refused to pay to send her to college to carry on with that career. My mother would have been, you know really successful. That was something she could do. So they, they just dealt with it and I suppose with all the tragedy around them they could see well actually I’m still here so I’m doing pretty well for that so I’ll carry on. DE: Yeah. RW: But quite where that fight comes from who knows, you know. My dad he just fought and made it work for him and my mother was the same and — DE: It’s a wonderful story of reconciliation. Two people from opposite sides — RW: Yes. DE: Joining. RW: Yeah. Of course you say that. Again, to me that seems normal but think about it. A mixed marriage in 1956. Germany. I mean my mother was Aryan. You know, blue eyes, blonde and yeah to do a [unclear] not bothered by that at all and it’s like so he went six months so she checked him out. Now, my mother very distrustful because of her upbringing so she actually went and met her real father and he didn’t know. She found out where he lived, went to his doorstep pretending she was canvassing for something. He didn’t have a scooby and she left because she wanted to clap eyes on him. Later on she met, and I went with her, his second wife. So I think again she wanted to connect. She wanted to know. She didn’t want to feel like ousted and discovered she had another half-brother and and actually sort of made these connections and learned more about her father after he’d passed on. But yeah so she did her homework on my dad. Checked that he was responsible, reliable. That’s what she wanted. But yeah in those days quite something and you can imagine again at British Telecom you’ve got this Trinidadian fellow and when you listen to his acceptance speech for his promotion there is a, he ends up trying to explain his slight awkwardness. I think he’s feeling slightly awkward that he’s the ethnic minority and he’s been promoted and there are other people who might have and haven’t been because he gets into a little monologue about how one gets promoted and I think that’s part of the driver to it. And they were also chuckling, his boss has sort of said, ‘We know when Jimmy has gone off to Germany. He’s been travelling around Europe and he’s found himself a wife,’ and then they start giggling about how you choose a wife and for them that must have been, sort of quite something that he’s marrying a German. They’d never met her. She came over. But actually he compartmentalised his life so his work was work and very few of his work colleagues came home to us. My mum had very little to do with his work. We only went to see his workplace once as I recall. Sitting very young, sitting in the canteen at Lutyens House in Old Street, London very, and we were very shy children because he was quite controlling and we were playing a game whoever came in next was and then we’d say a celebrity and of course the more they didn’t look like celebrity the more funny we found it. And I remember saying, ‘Ronnie Corbett,’ you know and this guy walked in. And that’s what I remember. But I don’t know how old I was, ten or something. And he once took me to work. To Folkestone. He went to one of his towers and Folkestone was unusual because it was a concrete structure not a metal girder. I don’t know if it’s still there and at the time it was recognised in architecture as quite revolutionary this three pillared radio tower. And I remember going there with him to work one day but that was it. He kept very [pause] so I think he lived a double life and it was work and he went and he loved it and he had meaning and purpose and people understood him and then he’d come home and he’d stop off at Camden Market and he’d bringing us avocadoes and guavas and things you buy now anywhere but in those days no one knew about. So he was trying to bring in in that sense his Trinidadian culture. The West Indian culture home and but he had those friends and a lot of Indian friends because of course he was sort of Indian, West Indian as opposed to African. But my mother couldn’t really relate to that as a German pernickety, what was the word he used to use for her? Fastidious. DE: Right. RW: My dad loved that. ‘Your mother is fastidious.’ So he would have this Caribbean side that would come out I think when he was at Camden. Then he would come home to a German wife and this household that was run like the Von Trapp family you see and it says it’s an interesting mix. It’s a cultural West Indian laid back too but Air Force military detailed perfection. You know. Homework. Regimented. But also because his insecurities because he had none of that to my mother German again cleanliness. And my mother she was always collecting little bits of paper because during the war clearly you know paper was a scarce resource and she had this thing that you couldn’t throw paper away so she’d chop it all up into squares and then there would be a stack to use for notes. DE: Right. RW: We’d never get through them all and she would because she was on this farm and it was dusty and she didn’t have a choice so everything was always dusted to within an inch of its life. So when we grew up with cowboy and Indian films, interesting how they’ve all gone you know like that was normal. There would be John Wayne shooting it up and then she would dust the top of the television because she felt the dust had settled from all the horses and waggons you see [laughs] on the screen. The dust had settled on the TV. So she’d dust the top of the television. So it was kind of wonderful these little clues all the time back to kind of where they’d come from. DE: Fantastic. RW: So I guess the last so talking about being tough is then I meet my partner Shelley Moore and her grandmother growing up in Putney and telling the story of the Putney bombing and that her niece had gone out for the evening and said she wanted to go to the cinema and it was towards the end of the war and so the Blitz was kind of over. People were sort of getting a bit more easy going, moving around London. But this one night two Fokker Wulf 190s, the German answer to the Mosquito, fast, capable I mean they argue don’t they possibly one of the best, if not the best design of the World War Two. Big powerful brutes and that two came in that night and one was going for Putney Bridge. So I went down and this is the fun isn’t it when you discover being an historian like yourself which I haven’t and I just have was let’s go there. Let’s make it real because you get more don’t you? DE: Yeah. RW: You see more because there is a church at each end of the bridge and they say the pilot was lining those up to hit the bridge and then you do go and you see and it’s like wow and they’re offset and so in came the bomber and at the same time this young lady she’s not gone to the cinema which was the other side of the road she’s gone to the dance club. Cinderella Dance Hall. And so she was in there, the German pilot releases his bomb, they reckon two seconds late and so it misses the bridge, carries on down the road. Now, if he’s lining up the churches that are offset then it aims straight at Cinderella Dance Club. But if he’s lining up along the bridge to give more chance of hitting it then I found out there was a cross wind that night because we’re in Britain aren’t we, the Brits and we always record the weather. So you can get the wind that night there and that blew it south so instead of hitting the other side of the road it went straight into the dance club and hundreds of people were killed and it was the worst bombing event tragedy for Putney of the whole war and she was in there. But the memoirs as you’ll see are, describe how then the family are in their little bomb shelter at the bottom of the garden and then she’s not home and the police arrive in the morning to say that, you know she’s been killed. That this bomb hit the dance club and she was in there and she’s dead. Only she’s not. So what happened was she’s in a body bag with all the others and because there was a milk bar downstairs and then there was a dance club above so there were lots of people in and she’s alive and she’s called out for her mother and for water and someone just happened to hear that and they unzipped her and got her out. And she had lost an eye and her face was badly injured. She lost a breast and they said she’d never have children and she took a year in hospital to be able to walk again and recover which she did. She had a family. So Shelley met her and, and it’s funny because Shelley’s father blew his own eyeball out as a kid with a firework so you’ve got these two with glass eyes. But they all had a good South London sense of humour about it. I’m not, I’m not sure if they did the, what was it? The old Falk. He had a glass eye didn’t he? Columbo. DE: Oh Yes. Yeah. RW: But if anyone sort of messed up apparently he’d pop it out and say, ‘You need this more than I do.’ So, I don’t think they went that far as Richard Falk. Peter Falk was it? But again that kind of get through it and, and so the grandmother she writes, you’ll see the end of her memoir she just sums it all up by saying, ‘Damned war.’ Brilliant. DE: Yeah. RW: Yeah. You know. So, and how many other stories and you think that we’ll never know and to them it was normal so it wasn’t a big deal. You think why don’t people talk about it? Well, it was just what you did. DE: Oh yeah. RW: Supposedly. Why are you going to make a big deal out of it? What else were we going to do? But what’s the moral of all of that? I suppose we still feel insecure don’t we? The world is still a tricky place. I always feel if we really look at it the world is becoming a better place. You go to the Imperial War Museum. I remember as a kid and that top floor you’d got to be over sixteen to go in and it showed you the numbers dying in world conflict and they’re going down down down, you know. So you need some good news but we still live in a troubled time. The armed forces are as prevalent as ever here in Lincoln. You’re reminded every day as we should be don’t take it for granted but actually you know what? Things are I think despite everything things are getting better and their mental attitude to to have hope, not give up no matter what, you know. Your ship’s broken down or you know that squadron hasn’t come back or your bridge has been blown up, your train’s bombed, you’re being machine gunned and you’re on your roller skates but this instinct just get on with it. We’ll be okay. I think, I think well that message just carries through to today doesn’t it? DE: Yeah. RW: Yeah. DE: I think, I think we’ve covered absolutely everything that I’ve sort of written notes about. Could you just, just for this recording say the story about the roller skates? RW: Yes. So my mother explains that her mother was working. They were in Berkersheim I think, because she was in a few different little villages actually at that time of the war and part of the road was nicely tarmacked and so she was out roller skating with a friend and she saw these two little planes high up in the sky. It was a clear blue sky and and they were sort of drawn to that and thought oh, you know, how cute. Two little planes. They then dived down to eye view level and strafed the village with machine gun bullets and so she ran on her roller skates with her friend and ran for home to the cellar and their cellar was supposed to be their bomb shelter but their bomb shelter was their wine store so it was full of huge vats of wine. And they ran down the concrete steps in their roller skates because what else were they going to do? Managed to achieve that without falling and killing themselves that way but then sat there all huddled up on their own waiting for this attack to finish realising that if, if the cellar took a hit they would drown in wine [laughs] and eventually emerged. And that she had been on the train and the same thing had happened. She said another clear blue sky, two little planes and then it attacked the train and when they got home explained this and that was the end of them taking the train anywhere. DE: Yeah. RW: So, yeah but the innocence of a child fascinated by the sound and the sight and not realising that they were actually the enemy this time. And one has to wonder why they were strafing that village because I don’t believe there was any military interest where she was living. So you do just wonder whether it was someone up there, a bunch of Germans, right. You know, you’re angry. Your mate didn’t come home yesterday from his flight and just give them a bit, a bit of action. Who knows. DE: Yeah. RW: So these fleeting, fleeting moments. I don’t know why Mustang comes into mind. Whether more recently when I spoke to her it’s not like she knew what aircraft they were but, but definitely from earlier on something has been sown in my memory that they were the Mustang. What’s that, the PE-58 was it? DE: 47. RW: 47. P-47 Mustangs. So American. DE: P-51. RW: 51. Ah, there we are. Yeah. So again lost. Lost in the sands of time. But somehow that had always been at some point maybe it was a P-51 and knowing and my mum you know she was interested in militaria to some extent too and I think sometimes you would remember what you’ve seen. So these names. Yeah. Yeah. DE: Absolutely fantastic. Thanks Rolph. RW: Pleasure. DE: Yeah. I’m not sure — [recording paused] RW: Well, this is nice that it will live on isn’t it? DE: Yes. RW: Someone, who knows, in the future will listen and picture because as you speak it you see it and as you listen you picture it don’t you. You create your own movie of it and that’s lovely as they did so. DE: Yeah. RW: So that little moment in time is sort of immortalised isn’t it? DE: Yeah. RW: Yeah. But who knows what else we’ll find. I mean my dad and Hendon I’ve got, I think there’s probably more we can find. Why he was flying where and what and I thought maybe Peter Grant. I won’t have any means to get his service record and I don’t know if his wife is still alive to be able to apply for it because knowing where he was and what he was doing could reveal what my dad was doing then. DE: Sure. RW: Yeah. DE: Yeah. RW: Because he was a lovely chap. All their children, their children are alive. One in America. So that might [pause] might reveal a bit more. DE: I always think with research it’s perseverance and you make your own luck and good fortune. RW: Yeah. DE: And you keep trying. The document will, will arrive. RW: Arrive eventually. Yeah. DE: Yeah. RW: Yeah. There must be more like from Filey and, and I don’t know, like reports and things. Whether they are all kept and get written up saying, ‘You’ve done very well,’ and this that and the other and whether there’s a wodge of paper somewhere of his actual RAF paperwork I don’t know but yeah and, and BT I wonder. I’ve got in touch with their archive but they didn’t have much which surprises me for what he was doing but then I wonder whether it’s classified. DE: It sounds like some of it probably was doesn’t it? RW: Yeah. DE: Yeah. RW: I think he was on, yeah I think he signed, he must have signed the Official Secrets Act now I’d say. I remember him saying he’d done that so I don’t know how it was used for the Cold War so that’s possibly why there is little [pause] and the Christmas cards. There were names of his other colleagues but I now realise I’m too late because they’d all be ninety or dead so it’s too late to try. And Ken Clarke the guy I went to Folkestone with and his son so it was me and that guy’s little son I thought I’d get in touch with him but no. I’ve left it too late. Yeah. So, yeah I didn’t mention of course my dad lied about his age so we don’t know. DE: Right. RW: He made himself two years older when he joined up and I’m not sure why he needed to because I thought we didn’t have a stipulation at twenty-one to join then. The Americans did. Or maybe he just wanted to seem more experienced. But so his service record he’s, he’s nineteen, eighteen and then on his discharge papers he’s become nineteen, twenty. So it was corrected. So I thought, oh that’s interesting that they didn’t just go with that. At some point he’s been honest and said it was but we don’t even know whether that’s true because birth certificate when you were born in Trinidad then to his family he always dismissed when we said it was your birthday. He’d say, ‘Oh, every day is a birthday.’ He always dismissed his birthday. It was like — DE: Right. RW: It was meaningless to him. So I don’t even know that he was. We always had a feeling he was older than he was. Yeah. But don’t know and Trinidad is too, I keep looking. It’s not very safe to go to still so. My brother went with my dad and said you know he was like a different person over there he was so chilled. But there’s still people around. There might be some some records to look up but for I think for western people going there it’s all the drug stuff at the moment. They kidnap people and yeah so it’s not doesn’t safe yet to go sadly. So, yeah. So that side of the story and [unclear] might be records I don’t know. DE: Something for another day. RW: Yeah. DE: Right. I shall press stop. RW: Yeah. DE: Thank you ever so much. RW: Thank you. Oh, it’s a pleasure. DE: Yeah. RW: But he wasn’t in Lincoln. The whole thing started with was here because I’d moved here obviously. DE: Yeah. RW: Was my dad here? There’s Lancasters everywhere [laughs] so but not that. That would have been peachy but yeah not quite. DE: Right. Thank you. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Rudolf Williams about his father, James Raphael Williams Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dan Ellin Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-07-07 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Civilian Second generation Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:56:34 Audio Recording Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AWilliamsR250707, PWilliamsJR2501 Description An account of the resource Rudolph describes his father’s (James) life, from his childhood years in Trinidad, through to volunteering for and serving in the RAF in the UK. After demobilisation, James returned briefly to Trinidad before returning to the UK where he worked for both the General Post Office and British Telecom. Rudolph’s mother was from a German family and her father was in the Luftwaffe. She moved to England after the war, aged 18, where she met Rudolph’s father. He talks about their life in the UK. Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1941 1942 1943-11-07 1944 1945 1948 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Germany Great Britain West Indies Atlantic Ocean Trinidad and Tobago Trinidad and Tobago--Trinidad England--London England--Shropshire England--Yorkshire England--Wiltshire Germany--Frankfurt am Main Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julie Williams Maureen Clarke Carolyn Emery African heritage aircrew anti-aircraft fire anti-Semitism Asian heritage bombing C-47 childhood in wartime demobilisation faith Fw 190 ground personnel home front Lancaster Lancastrian P-38 RAF Cosford RAF Hendon RAF Hunmanby Moor RAF Northolt RAF Yatesbury strafing training wireless operator https://ibccdigitalarchive.omeka.net/files/original/1930/51932/EDwyerJHPDwyerWM420916-0001.jpg e7f649a998c22d167b4e2c2ce3d4c0cd https://ibccdigitalarchive.omeka.net/files/original/1930/51932/EDwyerJHPDwyerWM420916-0002.jpg 8fe4b3b68c2d7bf3f3ea6e7e08377dca https://ibccdigitalarchive.omeka.net/files/original/1930/51932/EDwyerJHPDwyerWM420916-0003.jpg 1b23973c3d250e5db21f18f85432e21a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Dwyer, John Henry Patrick J H P Dwyer Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-09-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Dwyer, JHP Description An account of the resource 283 items. The collection concerns Flight Sergeant John Henry Patrick Dwyer DFM (1913 - 1942, 746829 Royal Air Force) and contains documents, correspondence and photographs. He flew operations as an air gunner with 57 Squadron and was killed 9/10 November 1942. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by John L Dwyer and catalogued by Barry Hunter. <br /><br />Additional information on John Dwyer is available via the&nbsp;<a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/106743/">IBCC Losses Database.</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Letter from Jack Dwyer to his wife Description An account of the resource Jack writes that he has been night flying. [Page 2 and 4 are missing] He talks about laundry and his two daughters. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jack Dwyer Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1942-09-16 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Civilian Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Text. Correspondence Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Two handwritten sheets and envelope Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context EDwyerJHPDwyerWM420916-0001, EDwyerJHPDwyerWM420916-0002, EDwyerJHPDwyerWM420916-0003 Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending text-based transcription Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1942-09-16 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Great Britain England--Nottinghamshire Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Dwyer, John Henry Patrick. Mail from Wigsley aircrew childhood in wartime RAF Wigsley https://ibccdigitalarchive.omeka.net/files/original/2318/51670/MBlewittT562676-180208-15.2.jpg a36dbd9cc30ac9b2a47abf3b34b4867a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Blewitt, Trevor Description An account of the resource 99 items. The collection concerns Flight Sergeant Trevor Blewitt (b. 1911, 562676 Royal Air Force) and contains documents, objects and photographs. He served as an aircraft fitter. Three albums&nbsp;<span>contain photographs of Trevor, other personnel, aircraft and places concerning his service.</span><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/2875">Album one</a>&nbsp;<span><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/2876">Album two</a><br /></span><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/2877">Album three</a><br /><br />The collection was loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Paul Blewitt and catalogued by Lynn Corrigan. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-02-08 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Blewitt, T Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Burial Description An account of the resource Details of the burial of Trevor Blweitt's daughter, Patricia Diane Blewitt who died aged 18 weeks. Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943-05-11 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Great Britain England--Lincolnshire England--Lincoln Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Civilian Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource One handwritten sheet Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending text-based transcription Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MBlewittT562676-180208-15 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. childhood in wartime final resting place https://ibccdigitalarchive.omeka.net/files/original/2739/50906/PDonaghyTR1902.2.jpg 6b37ebb740a98c9fd7488afbfaeec740 https://ibccdigitalarchive.omeka.net/files/original/2739/50906/PDonaghyTR1903.2.jpg b24fbb2d780ae41e30f47bbdf04200af Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Donaghy, Thomas Rogers Description An account of the resource Six items. The collection concerns Flight Sergeant Thomas Rogers Donaghy (422267 Royal New Zealand Air Force) and contains documents and photographs. He flew operations as a Pilot with 75 Squadron and was killed 11 June 1944. <br /><br />Additional information on Thomas Rogers&nbsp;Donaghy is available via the <a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/207569/">IBCC Losses Database.</a><br /><br />The collection was donated to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by John Donaghy and catalogued by Nigel Huckins. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-09-04 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Donaghy, TR Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Donaghy family Description An account of the resource Full length image of an airman wearing tunic and side cap walking down town street with young boy and girl. On the reverse 'Thomas Rodger Donaghy, John Roger Donaghy, Janet Elizabeth Donaghy'. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal New Zealand Air Force Type The nature or genre of the resource Photograph Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource One b/w photograph Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PDonaghyTR1902, PDonaghyTR1903 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. childhood in wartime https://ibccdigitalarchive.omeka.net/files/original/2754/50012/PLeighJL1923.2.jpg b4ddadeabc4f81e821306ba9cc9fdb83 https://ibccdigitalarchive.omeka.net/files/original/2754/50012/PLeighJL1924.2.jpg d92e08e361fe7da5ec4f84c8b6134401 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Leigh, John Lewis John Lewis Levy Description An account of the resource 101 items. The collection concerns Pilot Officer John Lewis Leigh (1912 - 1943, 135451 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, correspondence, documents, and photographs in three albums. <br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/2817">Album one</a>&nbsp;contains&nbsp;<span>photographs taken during his training.<br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/2818">Album two</a>&nbsp;</span>contains p<span>hotographs of his service.<br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/2819">Album three</a>&nbsp;contains photographs of his pre war civilian life and his service life.</span><br /><br />He flew operations as a wireless operator / air gunner with 150 and 180 Squadrons and was killed 22 January 1943. <br /><br />The collection was loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Rosalind Marshall and catalogued by Barry Hunter. <br /><br />Additional information on John Lewis Leigh is available via the <a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/216537/">IBCC Losses Database.</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-03-17 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Leigh, JL Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wendy Leigh's school sports day Description An account of the resource Schools port's day. Eight young girls being supervised by an older girl. On the reverse 'Wendy's school sport press photograph June 1945, Wendy 6 years'. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1945-06 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Civilian Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Photograph Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource One b/w photograph Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PLeighJL1923, PLeighJL1924 Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1945-06 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Great Britain childhood in wartime sport https://ibccdigitalarchive.omeka.net/files/original/2492/49675/SClarkeBE18567619v10117.1.pdf 1a41f84017f32288d9bdd8968a53e93c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Clarke, Brian Edward Description An account of the resource 165 tems. The collection concerns Sergeant Brian Edward Clarke (1867619 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, correspondence, documents, objects and photographs. He flew operations as an air gunner with 576 Squadron and was killed 14 January 1944. <br /><br />The collection was donated to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by <span>George Henry</span> Clarke and catalogued by Barry Hunter. <br /><br />Additional information on Brian Clarke is available via the&nbsp;<a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/104293/">IBCC Losses Database.</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-08-01 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Clarke, BE Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource The Lutonian Description An account of the resource A magazine published in July 1944. It contains news, letters, exam and sports results, club news, poems, Brian Clarke is reported missing, news of old boys, annual dinner, annual general meeting, staff list and adverts. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Luton Modern School and the Old Lutonian Modernians' Club Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1944-07 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Great Britain England--Bedfordshire England--Luton Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Civilian Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Text. Poetry Artwork Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 34 page printed booklet Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SClarkeBE18567619v10117 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1944-07 childhood in wartime missing in action sport https://ibccdigitalarchive.omeka.net/files/original/1667/49271/PAkenheadE2011.1.jpg f8b74bea33f49a3441b700b535569443 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Akenhead, Eva E Akenhead Wray family Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2020-08-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Akenhead, E Description An account of the resource 13 items. The collection concerns Corporal Eva Akenhead (Royal Air Force) and contains documents and photographs. She served at the Y Station at Branston and was billeted along with others with the Wray family in Branston. The collection was loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Timothy Michael Wray and catalogued by Jan Johnstone Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PAkenheadE2011 Title A name given to the resource Sid Kaufman and John Wray in a garden Description An account of the resource Sid Kaufman in uniform and John Wray in school uniform crouching in a garden. Captioned 'Technical Sergeant Sid Kaufman USAAF and John Wray in garden of 67 Lincoln Road Branston.' Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Great Britain England--Lincolnshire England--Lincoln Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant United States Army Air Force Civilian Type The nature or genre of the resource Photograph Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource One b/w photograph Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. childhood in wartime https://ibccdigitalarchive.omeka.net/files/original/1667/49262/PAkenheadE2002.1.jpg 6f661ff3916f35a56d8a96823c8e8ade Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Akenhead, Eva E Akenhead Wray family Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2020-08-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Akenhead, E Description An account of the resource 13 items. The collection concerns Corporal Eva Akenhead (Royal Air Force) and contains documents and photographs. She served at the Y Station at Branston and was billeted along with others with the Wray family in Branston. The collection was loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Timothy Michael Wray and catalogued by Jan Johnstone Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PAkenheadE2002 Title A name given to the resource Two men and a boy standing in garden Description An account of the resource Bill Wray in civilian clothing, Sid Kaufman in uniform and John Wray in school uniform standing in garden. Captioned 'Bill Wray, John Wray, Sid Kaufman in garden of 67 Lincoln Road, Branston.' Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Great Britain England--Lincolnshire England--Lincoln Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant United States Army Air Force Civilian Type The nature or genre of the resource Photograph Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource One b/w photograph Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. childhood in wartime home front https://ibccdigitalarchive.omeka.net/files/original/1667/49261/PAkenheadE2001.1.jpg f37280bc2778888ecfbe3c9e0700fead Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Akenhead, Eva E Akenhead Wray family Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2020-08-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Akenhead, E Description An account of the resource 13 items. The collection concerns Corporal Eva Akenhead (Royal Air Force) and contains documents and photographs. She served at the Y Station at Branston and was billeted along with others with the Wray family in Branston. The collection was loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Timothy Michael Wray and catalogued by Jan Johnstone Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PAkenheadE2001 Title A name given to the resource Group standing in garden Description An account of the resource Two men, two women and a boy standing in a garden. Bill Wray and the women in civilian clothes, Sidney Kaufman in uniform. The boy, John Wray, is in school uniform. Captioned 'Bill Wray, Eva Akenhead, unknown, John Wray, Sid Kaufman in garden of 67 Lincoln Road, Branston.' Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Great Britain England--Lincolnshire Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant United States Army Air Force Civilian Type The nature or genre of the resource Photograph Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource One b/w photograph Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. childhood in wartime home front https://ibccdigitalarchive.omeka.net/files/original/2684/47767/PSinclairET2305.2.jpg a92bf1a5e243988ba463bd2507c7d0e2 https://ibccdigitalarchive.omeka.net/files/original/2684/47767/PSinclairET2306.2.jpg 89344685585885258c22ad2e2c533cdc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sinclair, Eric T Description An account of the resource Four items. The collection concerns Eric T Sinclair (b. 1914, 137290 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book and photographs. He flew operations as a pilot as an instructor and with 35 Squadron. The collection was loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Peter Derek Sinclair and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-12 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sinclair, ET Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Eric Sinclair and family Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PSinclairET2305, PSinclairET2306 Description An account of the resource Eric Sinclair in uniform and his wife wearing a coat and hat walking holding the hands of a child in a kilt between them. Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Great Britain Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Civilian Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Type The nature or genre of the resource Photograph Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource One b/w photograph Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. aircrew childhood in wartime Pathfinders pilot https://ibccdigitalarchive.omeka.net/files/original/1875/46466/SHarriganD[Ser -DoB]v320002.mp3 89516deefc0392745cfbc6759b1bedf6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-06-19 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire Description An account of the resource 34 items. Interviews with veterans recorded by Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire.<br /><br />Interview with Bertie Salvage <br />Three part interview with Dougie Marsh <br />Interview with Terry Hodson <br />Interview with Stan Waite Interview with John Langston<br />Interview with Nelson Nix <br />Two part interview with Bob Panton <br />Interview with Basil Fish <br />Interview with Ernest Groeger <br />Interview with Wilf Keyte <br />Interview with Reginald John Herring <br />Interview with Kathleen Reid <br />Interview with Allan Holmes <br />Interview with John Tomlinson <br />Interview with Cliff Thorpe and Roy Smith <br />Interview with Peter Scoley <br />Interview with Kenneth Ivan Duddell <br />Interview with Christopher Francis Allison <br />Interview with Bernard Bell <br />Interview with George Arthur Bell <br />Interview with George William Taplin <br />Interview with Richard Moore <br />Interview with Kenneth Edgar Neve <br />Interview with Annie Mary Blood <br />Interview with Dennis Brader <br />Interview with Les Stedman <br />Interview with Anthony Edward Mason <br />Interview with Anne Morgan Rose Harcombe<br /> <p>The following interviews have been moved to the relevant collections.<br /><span>Interview with&nbsp;<a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46454">Kathleen Reid</a></span><br />Interview with Wing Commander <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46467">Kenneth Cook DFC</a><br />Interview with&nbsp;<a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46456">Colin Cole</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/46464">Charles Avey</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46470">John Bell</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46459">Les Rutherford</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46460">James Douglas Hudson</a></p> Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document Interviewer: This is an interview with Mr Nelson Nix at RAF Coningsby on the 19th of May 2011 concerning his experiences during the Second World War as a child and afterwards. Would you like to start Nelson with that little story? NN: Yeah. Ok then. Well, right from the very start I would be about six, five six years old and my father who kept the village store he also was in the Special Constables and then later on became in the Observer Corps which In 1942 became The Royal Observer Corps. Now, there was a post, a Royal Observer Corps post on the Fossdyke, on the riverbank which he used to man at night and do his job in the daytime of course running the shop. And after that of course they were [pause] scrub that bit, I’ve forgotten [laughs] I’ve forgotten what I was saying. But anyway, yeah he, the post itself that was issued with what they called a Darkie set and the Darkie set was so that they could contact or the aircraft coming back that was probably been shot up and things and couldn’t get back to the base or lost and that sort of thing like they did occasionally do and consequently he could contact them. Either put them on the right heading or get them to ditch on the Black Buoy Sands in the Wash which was where they could be rescued from. There used to be two, as I remember two boats in the Boston Docks that could be launched to go and pick them up. Air sea rescue as it presumably would be called then. I don’t know. But anyway, that sort of thing happened and again as a boy I can remember standing outside the shop in the evenings watching all these hundreds of aircraft which over the Wash area, would be taking off from places throughout Lincolnshire to get the height and formations before they went off to Germany to bomb. I didn’t know that. It was all rather fun for a boy of six or seven. So from that I can still picture that in my mind, all those hundreds of aircraft. It could have been some of the thousand bomber raids which I didn’t know about then. But they would be getting the height and that ready to fly off and everything would go dead quiet after that. You know, it was just one big buzz. But, and then the next thing you probably heard was them coming back again later on, you know. But, yeah it was quite an experience and even today I can remember it as if it was yesterday. Things today I can’t remember what happened earlier on [laughs] It’s hard but from then I always had a keen interest in aircraft and no military record whatsoever. I failed my medical test for the Forces on the call up when it, so I didn’t go. What I did then I joined the Royal Observer Corps and I did thirty two years in the Royal Observer Corps as a voluntary, well I went through from basically an observer to instructor observer and then on to head observer and we were, our headquarters at Fiskerton in Lincoln and when I first joined it was at Derby. But that was a long while ago. I can’t remember too much about that but we did aircraft reporting for a start and then gradually we came on to the underground posts which was a post consisted of three post members at a time. Each post had about ten to twelve observers which we could go and change duties with and what have you. And that, we used to have exercises on aircraft reporting and you know that kind of thing. And I’ve got to think back. And anyway, things sort of progressed to the Cold War situation where we was underground in these underground bunkers and they, we would go on duty, do these exercises for reading the different instruments we had on board or in the post. We were a sealed unit at the time where we were fastened down and then it was all theatrics. Well, you couldn’t practice on the real bombs [laughs] but it was just in case we did. Through triangulation if you had two or three posts within say a bomb had fell, exploded, so you’d have a flash which was recorded on a pinhole camera and all the [unclear] would be around it at four cardinal points. So by reading those and putting them over the radio to Fiskerton if you had three posts you would get, you would find out whether the bomb had actually dropped or if it was an airburst or a ground burst. So that if you had a ground burst you get more fallout than you would from an airburst. But an airburst would probably flatten things more. So that’s how it worked and I was in that as I said for thirty two years. In that time unfortunately I did have cancer and that’s what twenty two years ago now and I came on to the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight. One of our lads on, which I was on Coningsby post at that time, I was head observer there and he said, ‘Well, you know, why don’t you?’ I’d lost, I’d had to sell my business and what have you through the cancer so I came down to Coningsby and I’ve been down here for twenty two years taking people around Lancasters, Spitfires, Hurricanes and the Dakota of course. But it’s part of your life but I often think what would I have done if I hadn’t have done this and I thought, yeah most of the guys here they really thoroughly enjoy doing it as a voluntary job. So there we are. That’s about it. I’m still kicking about after twenty two years of cancer so it’s fine. Interviewer: Well, thank you very much, Nelson. That was very interesting. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Nelson Nix 1032-Nix, Nelson Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SHarriganD[Ser#-DoB]v320002 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Civilian Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:07:47 audio recording Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending revision of OH transcription Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Claire Bennett This Interview was recorded by Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-05-19 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Description An account of the resource Nelson Nix grew up during the war. His father kept the village shop and was also a special constable and member of the Observer Corps, which later became the Royal Observer Corps. The post had access to the Darkie sets which were used to guide stricken or lost aircraft back to their base or directed them to ditch in the Wash where boats were on standby to collect the crews. Nelson went on to join the Royal Observer Corp himself and was with them for 32 years. After his service he went on to be a guide at the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight based at RAF Coningsby. Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Great Britain Atlantic Ocean--North Sea England--Lincolnshire England--The Wash Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julie Williams Maureen Clarke childhood in wartime ditching home front RAF Coningsby Royal Observer Corps https://ibccdigitalarchive.omeka.net/files/original/1875/46465/SHarriganD[Ser -DoB]v310002.mp3 dba55bcfd3288733e70c03b9fff85978 https://ibccdigitalarchive.omeka.net/files/original/1875/46465/SHarriganD[Ser -DoB]v310004.mp3 af811d089815158df987ec0309af7ee5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-06-19 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire Description An account of the resource 34 items. Interviews with veterans recorded by Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire.<br /><br />Interview with Bertie Salvage <br />Three part interview with Dougie Marsh <br />Interview with Terry Hodson <br />Interview with Stan Waite Interview with John Langston<br />Interview with Nelson Nix <br />Two part interview with Bob Panton <br />Interview with Basil Fish <br />Interview with Ernest Groeger <br />Interview with Wilf Keyte <br />Interview with Reginald John Herring <br />Interview with Kathleen Reid <br />Interview with Allan Holmes <br />Interview with John Tomlinson <br />Interview with Cliff Thorpe and Roy Smith <br />Interview with Peter Scoley <br />Interview with Kenneth Ivan Duddell <br />Interview with Christopher Francis Allison <br />Interview with Bernard Bell <br />Interview with George Arthur Bell <br />Interview with George William Taplin <br />Interview with Richard Moore <br />Interview with Kenneth Edgar Neve <br />Interview with Annie Mary Blood <br />Interview with Dennis Brader <br />Interview with Les Stedman <br />Interview with Anthony Edward Mason <br />Interview with Anne Morgan Rose Harcombe<br /> <p>The following interviews have been moved to the relevant collections.<br /><span>Interview with&nbsp;<a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46454">Kathleen Reid</a></span><br />Interview with Wing Commander <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46467">Kenneth Cook DFC</a><br />Interview with&nbsp;<a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46456">Colin Cole</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/46464">Charles Avey</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46470">John Bell</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46459">Les Rutherford</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46460">James Douglas Hudson</a></p> Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document Part 1. Interviewer: This is an interview with Mr Bob Panton in RAF Coningsby on the 19th of May 2011 talking about his post-war experiences in Lincolnshire. So what are your memories of the war, Bob? BP: Well, all of it. All of it really. It was very fascinating with all the bits and pieces that went on. I can recall that after the 9 o’clock news every night apart from one there was a programme called, “Into Battle.” It lasted about ten minutes and you used to be absolutely glued to the radio listening to this every night which was part and parcel of what it was all about, you know. We saw very very strange things happen obviously. Only very recently was a report about someone finding an enemy aircraft which was downed in the sea. Yeah, and the powers that be were going to restore this aeroplane or get it out of the sea and it was a Dornier 17 and they did appeal for anyone that knew anything about Dornier 17s as I did. I didn’t do anything about it. Don’t get me wrong. And it was in August 1940, I was on holiday obviously, 12 o’clock father was coming down the garden path on his, pushing his bicycle and then from the south, west southwest of where we were I saw three Dornier 17s and of course as a young fellow who knew every aircraft inside out and backwards and I said to father, ‘There are three German aeroplanes.’ Father came out with some remark which I’ll not repeat and there appeared closer still three Dornier 17s. All of a sudden out of the sun appeared six Spitfires which we later understood came from Digby. Three of the Spitfires peeled away and the other three set about the Dornier 17s and I watched them shoot them down. That was a personal experience which I’ll never forget. One of them they actually sawed the wing off. It’s port wing. Just as if it had gone through a hacksaw. It just went like that and fell down to the ground. Almost immediately in our wisdom a good friend of mine who was equally mad about aeroplanes jumped on our bicycle to find the first one which came down which we knew wasn’t too far away. We got there before the Army did which the Army were not very pleased about because of course the prisoners, the aircrew had baled out and the fact that the blooming thing still carried a full load of bombs [laughs] If you look in the Visitor Centre you will see some of the remains of that Dornier 17. That was a very unusual thing to happen. They gathered all the crews together like eventually. What actually happened was not very nice. One of the poor souls was decapitated as he baled out. Got his head crushed and that was it. It parted company from the rest of his body. Another one was taken from Bilsby where this aircraft crashed to Alford Cottage Hospital by the village parson, Reverend Fletcher and when he was admitted to hospital he actually spat in the nurses face. Interviewer: Oh dear. BP: Which made him a very unpopular fella. But eventually three of them were killed and they were laid to rest in Bilsby Churchyard for a lot of years. And all of a sudden one day I showed somebody these graves and they weren’t there anymore. Interviewer: Really. BP: They’d taken the remains back home. ‘Well, that’s funny. I knew they were here.’ [laughs] Just one of the experiences, you know. You never forget. Amazing really. Joined the ATC as soon as ever I possibly could and eventually became a Senior Cadet NCO of 1073 Squadron. Won a scholarship which was mounted by the college at Manby and learned to fly with the University Air Squadrons on Tiger Moths of all things which was very nice. Open cockpit you see. Interviewer: Yes. BP: A true plane. And then at seventeen and a half joined the Royal Air Force and went on to do flying training on Tiger Moths to start with. On to Harvards and then on to the four engine ones. The only problem with my flying was why I finished up on big things because I couldn’t have any idea at all of navigation. It never clicked. Most of the exam we had to we cheated like mad. Once outside the boundary of the airfield that was it. So I had to have a navigator behind me [laughs] as it were. Interviewer: So, you flew Lancasters. BP: Yeah. Yeah. Interviewer: And where would that have been? BP: Mildenhall, Wyton. Interviewer: Wow. BP: Upwood for a little while. Variously saw an amount of service and then went on to eleven weeks with Operation Plane Fare which was what it was all about on Tuesday. The Berlin Airlift. Interviewer: Right. You were in involved in the Berlin Airlift. BP: Used to fly, flew Yorks on the Berlin Airlift. Interviewer: Right. BP: Yeah. Which was really quite something. Interviewer: Yes. BP: It was pure and simply a cowboy outfit from the word go because that was the way it had to be. The Russians had blockaded the city. We couldn’t get anything in by road or rail and of course the surrounding territory was the Russians. They wanted us out. It wasn’t all their fault. We did things that they didn’t like and vice versa. We changed the currency without really telling them which wasn’t a very good thing to do. And I did forty nine trips from Wunstorf to Gatow with eight and a half short tons of coal in the back. So somebody trained me to fly aeroplanes and I finished up being a coalman [laughs] which was what this trip was all about. The York down at Duxford apparently when we got it sorted it all out it was apparently one of the aircraft that actually flew on the Berlin Airlift. Interviewer: I’ve heard about the coal dust. BP: Yeah. Interviewer: Still being in the Lancaster years later. BP: Oh yeah. Well, this one was in the repair depot at Duxford many years ago. I remember seeing it and I did enquire if this thing had been found to have coal dust anywhere and somebody would come and have a look and they did. Nooks and crannies. The lot. And I learned on Tuesday when they took the floor up from the York it was absolutely covered in coal dust. But it solved a problem because they got the historical records of the aircraft and I got my historical records and it fitted. It was one of them. So it was a problem that solved after about twenty three years [laughs] Very nice. I don’t — Interviewer: What was it like to fly the Lancaster? BP: Physical. Interviewer: Hard work. BP: Yeah. If you like. It was physical. Not like today’s modern aircraft. There were no computers, no power control. It was pilot flying which was what pilots were supposed to do really [laughs] if you like. But it had a few little tricks which it liked to remind you of at times like pulling off the runway because all the props turned in the same direction but the pilots that were around were good at having to. Yeah. Lovely aeroplane. The Lincoln of course was another version. Bigger in every respect and obsolete before it really came out. Only built five hundred and three I think. The only operational service it did was with Mao Mao out in Africa. That was about it really. No way would it have even if we had gone to war they would never have launched them. Interviewer: No. BP: The ones that jacked it up. We were told that if we did go in to action then piston engine aeroplanes like that wouldn’t have lasted two minutes and they shot Gary Powers down didn’t they? Interviewer: Yes, they did. BP: From about five or six miles. I don’t think a Lancaster would have lasted very long. Thank goodness it never happened like that, you know. Interviewer: Did you sort of see the demise of the Lancasters? BP: Oh yes. Interviewer: Less and less of them around. BP: Yeah. Interviewer: And — BP: Yeah. Yeah. You’ll never ever see another one as good as this one because that one is better than brand new. They’ve been here in the wintertime and seeing what they do it every wintertime it’s amazing. They virtually take it to bits every year. Interviewer: Yes. BP: And then every six years. Now, eight years. It goes away to British industry to do a complete service on it. Take it virtually to pieces every time. It only does about a hundred hours a year but it’s perfect. Interviewer: Yes. BP: Inside it’s exactly the same as it would have been many years ago. All the bits and pieces have all been found and put back where they should be but it’s dual control now of course which it wasn’t. Which it wouldn’t have been. The main reason being because we always for safety sake there was two pilots there. Bearing in mind they don’t fly it at twenty thousand feet anymore. It’s about a thousand feet over a lot of people. Interviewer: Yes. BP: So they always have got to be in safety. Interviewer: You’re not a small man and I know a few men in the war weren’t small pilots and like Gibson wasn’t — BP: That’s right. Interviewer: Over tall, and a few of the others. What difficulties would he, could you see him having? BP: They always said he wanted to put wood blocks on the rudder pedals. I don’t think anybody dare tell Gibson that because he wasn’t a nice man to know in some respects. He was very very blunt and could be rude. Extremely rude. That’s what he had to be. Interviewer: Yes. BP: He got the thing done did he not? Yeah. Amazing. But in this area of course this is where it all happened. Interviewer: Indeed. Yes. BP: The great shame I think is that the Bomber Command Memorial is going in Green Park in London. I think the Memorial should be outside of Lincoln Cathedral or somewhere adjacent because that was the pinpoint all the bombing lads looked for. Interviewer: Circling Lincoln cathedral as they came back. BP: That’s right. Absolutely. It was a leading landmark. Interviewer: I suppose we should be grateful we’re having one at all. BP: Oh, we shall. Yeah. One of the things that happened amongst several. Think about the Poles and the Czechs even left out of the Victory Parade in London. Interviewer: That was — BP: That was absolutely disgusting. Interviewer: It was reprehensible. BP: The bravest of the brave. They really were. Poor old Bomber Harris was treated like a piece of dirt when it was all over and before it was all over actually. Interviewer: Yes. BP: The Dresden raid he took full responsibility. It wasn’t his orders at all. It was Churchill’s. It had been requested by Joseph Stalin to give him a little bit of support in the eastern part of Germany and that’s what happened. Interviewer: Yes. BP: Passed the buck. Interviewer: Yes. BP: We’re still deal with it a bit sometimes don’t we? I don’t know about sometimes but anyway, yeah. Interviewer: So how long did you stay in the RAF altogether? BP: I stayed nearly six years and the problem I got was eye trouble. I got astigmatism in one of my eyes and virtually given the chance to say you can stay in the Royal Air Force as ground crew or you can leave. So I left. Today they can cure that problem in three seconds with laser treatment. Interviewer: How did you feel when you left the Air Force? BP: Oh devastated. Devastated. And then twenty five years ago I came back and joined up again [laughs] which was rather nice. Interviewer: And you’ve been a guide here at Coningsby for twenty five years. BP: Yeah. Yeah. Twenty five in ’86. Yeah. Yeah. Interviewer: You see the veterans come sometimes. BP: Yeah. Quite, oh yeah quite often. We’ve had all sorts of people from all over the world. No doubt about that. Wonderful people that remember things. We were talking only last week to a party and we were talking about the Poles and the Czechs in front of the Mark Five Spitfire because it’s marked as one of their aircraft. And one of the gentlemen was listening very intently and when he came out with his driving licence and there was the funny name. And his grandfather was a fighter pilot on 303 Squadron. That very aircraft. Interviewer: Goodness. BP: Yeah. And he was, I just began to wonder whether I’d said anything wrong [laughs] but he was very interested in what happened and I said to him at the end of the day, ‘Remember the brave.’ Because he was one of them. Interviewer: Dear. BP: 303 Squadron. Fortunately, he lived to see the war over. Amazing. Interviewer: Have you had any family in the war as it were? BP: Oh, two. Two brothers. Interviewer: Yes. BP: Two elder brothers. Interviewer: And they — BP: One was a rear gunner on Wellingtons for quite a time until he got virtually shot to bits and the other one strangely enough was a trainee solicitor in Gloucester, called up to the Royal Air Force. Where do you think he got posted? Royal Air Force Records Office, Gloucester and stayed there the whole war. Absolutely [laughs] Anybody else you’d put preference down and say you wanted to stay in Coningsby they’d send you up to the north of Scotland. Interviewer: Best not to let them know. BP: He was there right through the war. Yes. Fascinating. Interviewer: How did you feel about your brother being in Wellingtons? What age would he have been? BP: Oh, he’d be twenty years, a bit more than that older than me. He’d be, today he would be well over a hundred but in those days he’d be something like twenty two or three. Something like that. But he actually got the canopy, his Perspex shot to bits all around him and he wasn’t touched. Amazing. Turned into a blithering idiot. He was shaking like this. It happened to him twice and he got discharged to, he was at least six years before he was ever any good again. Interviewer: So the war took its toll on, on your brother. BP: Yeah. Oh yeah. He was absolutely devastated. I can imagine it too. I mean the rear turret was not a very nice place at the best of times but— Interviewer: No. BP: Having it all shot to pieces. Yeah. Poor old Jack. Interviewer: And he did his service in just Wellingtons? BP: Yeah. Interviewer: Yeah. BP: But it, he wasn’t the only one of course. The aircrew like that. Interviewer: No. BP: The only possibly awkward thing was and not very nice at all was when someone got absolutely petrified they could be given a special title which was LMF. Lack of moral fibre. Interviewer: Yes. BP: And they were treated just like that. Banished. Wherever they were based they never saw them again. Interviewer: Yeah. They were sent away. BP: Put away somewhere and discharged and that was it. Interviewer: Different to, different commanders had different attitudes didn’t they? BP: Oh yeah. Yeah. Interviewer: Gibson who you’d think would be a real stickler for this didn’t really hold with anybody, sending anybody LMF did he? BP: No. No. Interviewer: He would get the doctor to sort of dismiss him and — BP: Yeah. Yeah. Interviewer: And do it like that. BP: Yeah. Yeah. Interviewer: Which is quite, you know contradictory to his — BP: LMF is a terrible thing to do to anybody. Interviewer: It is. Yes. BP: Even if he was a coward it’s a horrible thing to do. I mean not necessarily be a coward because he was deadly frightened. He was petrified. But that’s what happened. Interviewer: Indeed. BP: Canadians and Australians. New Zealanders. You name it the lot was there. We even lost one Israeli pilot in the Battle of Britain which was unusual. Just one. I think there was only one plane. There we are. Amazing. Interviewer: Well, thank you very much, Bob. BP: No problem. My pleasure. Interviewer: That’s been very very interesting. Thank you. Part 2. Interviewer: This is an interview at RAF Coningsby with Mr Bob Panton discussing his experiences as a boy during the war and his RAF career afterwards. BP: Yes. First interested in flying an awful long time ago when we had a barnstormer at the bottom of Miles Cross Hill near Alford with this old Avro 504k and he was a friend of my very eldest brother who was a lot older than me and I was, I was led to believe, I was three and I actually got a flight in this Avro 504k. The only problem is for a lot of years I thought I’d done it but we didn’t. Only did because I couldn’t see over the hedge. It was taxied a few yards and that was my flight [laughs] From then on the bug was there. Flying was the dream and eventually of course became senior NCO, Cadet NCO, 1073 Squadron ATC and went into the Royal Air Force and learned to fly on a scholarship with the University Air Squadron on Tiger Moths and eventually finished up as a four-engine aircraft pilot. The main reason being because I couldn’t do navigation very well which usually raises a bit of a titter but it was perfectly true. Never was any good. By then of course the wars were all over but another one was in the offing and that was a war, the Cold War. And I took part in eleven weeks on the Berlin Airlift when the Russians blockaded the city and we had to feed two million people and all the rest of their needs and did forty nine trips from Wunstorf in western Germany to Berlin with eight and a half short tons of coal in the back of a York. Interviewer: Did you just take coal or anything else? BP: Only coal. Yeah. Yeah. They gave all these mucky jobs to us sprog pilots and we were called actually on Wunstorf, sprog pilots. The five of us were all fairly young and we were all there to fill in the gaps. Anyone who went sick or anything like that we took his aeroplane and did it. And unbelievably now thinking about it quite often although we were not obliged to do it we actually went on trips as passengers [laughs] Just to say we’d been flying. That was really amazing. The memory was brought back to me on Tuesday. This last Tuesday at Duxford, the Imperial War Museum when I was actually reunited with a York that had actually flown on the Berlin Airlift which was rather nice. It had been in the offing for many years but it was proved it was one of the actual aircraft. I finished up flying Lancasters on their last few trips within the Royal Air Force and then of course went on to Yorks and then to the Lincoln. And I’ve been a guide at Coningsby now for twenty five years which gives us a lot of pleasure. To be reunited again with the Lancaster which was very nice. The best Lancaster ever. Looked after like a baby thank goodness and I’ve actually had the opportunity to fly in it a few times which is very nice. Can’t do that now because there isn’t time but it’s quite something. Interviewer: You must have seen the devastation of Germany. You know, what did you think about that? BP: Oh, it was awful. It was really awful. But it was war and that’s what it was all about. By then even in ’48 ’49 the city of Berlin was awful. Blown to bits. Hardly a building left standing. Interviewer: As in Cologne or — BP: Aye Cologne. The city of Cologne of course was and by divine judgement or bad bomb aiming we didn’t up the cathedral. Interviewer: No. BP: Chipped a few bits off it like but [pause] And then afterwards of course when that was all over we had a very strange experience. The Manna drop which was by kind permission of the enemy. We took Lancasters with not a bomb load but food to feed the starving people out in Holland. Interviewer: They were always very grateful for it weren’t they? BP: Oh yeah. Interviewer: And still are. BP: Yeah. They were. Oh yeah. We, odd times we get someone. I haven’t seen anybody for a long time now but odd times we still get one or two people like that who remember that experience. I didn’t do it but it was there. Somebody had written it into the annals of history of the Air Force. There we are. Interviewer: But as a boy living in Lincolnshire you had an experience with the, as I say with three Dorniers. BP: Oh. Yeah. That was quite [pleasant] yes. Interviewer: Would you like to tell us about that please? BP: 12 o’clock lunchtime at home in Alford and father was just coming down for his mid-day meal and looking to the west southwest where I was there was three ever growing larger specks in the sky. As a very very keen observer of aircraft I knew exactly what they were and I was right. They were Dornier 17s. Reports later on, a lot later on guessed at the fact that they were lost and they were, had been sent to bomb the airfield at Horsham St Faiths which was Norwich Airport now and all fully loaded with bombs. And eventually six Spitfires appeared. Three of them from out of the sun and set about these three aircraft. The first one they shot it down and virtually what looked like sawed its port wing off which was the blow was sufficient to make it just drop off plus the engine All three of them bit the dust and quite an experience really. Not very long after that gathered up a good friend and we went to explore the first crash site which we eventually found. Unfortunately, we got in to severe trouble by the Army because they were sent to gather up the prisoners and we weren’t supposed to be there. Plus the fact that all three aeroplanes still had still got a full bomb load onboard which was we didn’t know that either. A lot of stories around that. The local parson at Bilsby which was where the first one crashed, Reverend Fletcher carried one of the damaged crew to Alford Cottage Hospital and when he was admitted he actually spat in the nurse’s face. Nurse [Hundleby]. Amazing story. Three of them were killed outright. One of them was actually decapitated because he was trying to get out of his aircraft and they were buried in Bilsby Churchyard. Quite a few years ago now I had the opportunity of showing someone where these guys were buried and when I got there they weren’t there anymore. Obviously, their remains had been taken home which happened quite a lot. Interviewer: I think a lot of the Germans were sort of disinterred and taken around — BP: Yeah. Yeah. And vice versa. Interviewer: Yes. BP: Yeah. Interviewer: I think a lot of them found their way to Cannock Chase, didn’t they? BP: Yeah. They did. Yeah. Interviewer: And buried, reburied there. BP: Oh yeah. Yeah. Maybe. It was, it was quite an experience that was. Interviewer: Very exciting for a young boy. BP: Yeah. It really was. Yeah. Interviewer: At that time. BP: And as I say there are some of the remains of the first Dornier shot down was in the Visitor Centre at Coningsby now. Gathered those up and gave some away like. A few. But there we are. Very nice too. Interviewer: But very exciting and of course — BP: Well, war was like that. It really was. Some of the memories are really it’s a job to believe them. Like the blackout. I mean that was quite something. I mean everything was in pitch darkness. You wanted to go anywhere you had to feel your way along. Interviewer: Yes. BP: The streets, the footpaths, no lights as we walked past at all of any kind. Rationing was another one. One egg a week. Well, that was ridiculous in Lincolnshire. I mean for goodness sake there was millions of the jolly things. And every, everybody who knew anything about the job had a pig tucked away somewhere. So we were never short of anything really to be honest. Interviewer: You came from a town, a rural, or a rural — BP: Oh yes. Interviewer: Yeah. BP: That’s right. Yeah. Amazing. Interviewer: And your parents at this time they’d seen your elder brother go off and — BP: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Interviewer: And his experiences. BP: He was a rear gunner on Wellingtons and eventually having had the canopy, the Perspex on his turret shot to bits around him his nerve went. As simple as that and became a dithering idiot for quite some time. Interviewer: Then went back in. BP: No. No. Interviewer: Right. BP: He was discharged. Medical discharge. Interviewer: Right. BP: In case it reoccurred again of course. Interviewer: Yes. BP: But hardly surprisingly it must have been an awful experience for anybody. Interviewer: Absolutely, I mean they say the rear gunner was the worse position. BP: Yeah. The rear gunner. Rear gunner the rear position of a Lancaster. It was bad enough to look at its a terrible place to be. Even at peace. It really is. Claustrophobic beyond belief but somebody had to do it. That’s what it was all about. Interviewer: But you’re a tallish man so you would find flying a Lancaster not that difficult. BP: No. No. It was quite — Interviewer: Some of the shorter men. BP: Yeah. Yeah. Interviewer: Like Gibson. BP: Yeah. We had one at Coningsby. We called him Andy Tomlin. A smashing little chap but he was only about five foot four. We always chided him about his wooden blocks under the bench. They always, prior to actually taking command of Coningsby one of the basic needs was how to be able to fly the Lanc. Most of them had never done it. COs only lasted three years at Coningsby you see and they used to fly the Shackleton at Lossiemouth as a training aircraft. You can’t do that now of course. There isn’t one. Interviewer: No. BP: So they have to learn on our own Lancaster. That’s why, one of the reasons why it’s dual control. It’s on the job training if you like [laughs] Interviewer: And where did you fly from? BP: Mildenhall, Wyton, 15 Squadron. Upwood for a time. Interviewer: And then the York which — BP: Yeah. York. York. That was we joined the Berlin airlift at Northolt. That was the initiation if you like and became at Wunstorf one of a team of five of which we were christened sprog pilots because we were relatively young but our job was to fill in the gaps as and when they occurred. That was nice really. In fact, it was good. We got more flying than anybody else and that’s what it was all about. Interviewer: And you saw the Lancs gradually disappear. BP: Yeah. Interviewer: And the end of an era. BP: Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Interviewer: As far as — BP: Yeah. Yeah. Interviewer: It must have been very sad to see them. BP: Saw a lot of them removed and just junked. Scrapped. Now, we’ve got well about three I think in this country. One of them can fly and the other is in Canada that can fly. The strange thing is in Canada theirs is actually registered to can carry passengers. Interviewer: Yes. I think they fly over Niagara Falls as well just to — BP: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don’t know what they charge but it must be nice. Interviewer: I think a couple of years ago it was a thousand pounds. BP: Were it? Well, why not? I can remember this thing very well just to fill you in on money. We were at, the flight itself was at Duxford on a Sunday, oh must be twenty years ago now and parked up. I was talking to the engineering officer, Warrant Officer Barry Sears who had gone with it [until he retired] and a chap came over the barrier, approached Barry Sears and said, ‘You’re doing a fly past over Cambridge.’ ‘Yeah, we are doing a flypast over.’ ‘I’ve got two thousand quid if either of you will take me.’ The trip was about ten minutes of course. Cambridge just up the road. We wouldn’t take his money. I said to him I’d have knocked his arm off, knocked his elbow for two thousand quid. He was serious too. Interviewer: Yes. Yes. There’s something about the Lancaster. BP: Yeah. Interviewer: You just — BP: I mean he would have only just had time to sit down [laughs] But oh dear. It couldn’t happen. There we are. Interviewer: So you had six happy years in the RAF. BP: Yes. Unfortunately had to do a discharge because of bad eyesight which today can be cured in three seconds with laser treatment but it wasn’t then. There we are. Interviewer: But you’re back here at Coningsby. BP: Yes. Interviewer: With the, with the Lanc. BP: Yeah absolutely. Interviewer: And — BP: Yeah. Interviewer: Spreading the word to the public. BP: Yeah. Interviewer: That come around. BP: Yeah. That’s right. Strange experiences quite often. We quite often see tears. That’s not in the slightest bit unusual. Interviewer: No. BP: Disbelief quite often which is understandable of course. We look at todays modern pieces of aviation well there’s no comparison whatsoever. Lots of people, if not everybody would give their absolute high teeth to fly in a Lanc and ninety nine percent of them would say never again because that’s what it was about. It’s a very good producer of blood and bad language. Sharp edges and bare metal. But it’s a beautiful aeroplane. Interviewer: And you have the Poles and the Czechs come around. BP: Oh yeah. Yeah. Interviewer: And have a look at the Spits and Hurris — BP: Yeah. We did. Only as I said last week we were talking about the valiant gallant Poles and Czech pilots in the Battle of Britain who were not in the slightest bit interested in the frilly bits of the Royal Air Force or anybody else’s Air Force. All they wanted to do was get into battle. Stuffy Dowding was the head of Fighter Command refused to make them operational because once airborne they reverted to their own separate languages meaning that nobody had any idea where they were. They wouldn’t remain in formation. If they saw a little something that looked suspicious they went to sort it out. One of their pilots on 303 Squadron was Sergeant Pilot Josef Frantisek and he was actually turned loose. He wasn’t, no pilot was ever supposed to follow enemy aircraft back over the Channel. It was a trap. Frantisek did it every time and eventually they said oh well, carry on. And dear old Frantisek finished up being the highest scoring pilot in the actual Battle of Britain. He shot down seventeen and a half enemy aeroplanes himself. Half a one he shared with another pilot. An amazing chap. Interviewer: And you’re full of admiration for the ones — BP: Oh yeah. Interviewer: Also, that come to — BP: That’s right. Interviewer: To see the flights. BP: All sorts of stories you can tell about the Poles and the Czechs. This chappy last week was talking about these incidents and things and getting on about the Poles and the Czechs and he pulled his driving licence out and it was a Polish name. And his grandfather had actually been a pilot on 303 Squadron which was one of the reasons he came to look at that particular aircraft. It was really quite something. Amazing really. Interviewer: So you hear all these wonderful stories. BP: Oh yeah. And experiences. That’s right. We do. Interviewer: Well, thank you very much, Bob. BP: No problem at all. A great pleasure. Interviewer: Very interesting indeed. Thank you. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Bob Panton 1029,1030,1031-Panton, Bob Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SHarriganD[Ser#-DoB]v31-02, SHarriganD[Ser#-DoB]v31-04 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Claire Bennett This Interview was recorded by Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Civilian Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Description An account of the resource Bob Panton was a child during the war. One day as his father was coming towards their house Bob saw three Dornier 17 come into view. Then out of the sun came six Spitfires and a battle started in front of him. Bob saw the Dorniers shot down and, with a friend, rushed to the crash site. Of the surviving German aircrew one was taken to the local cottage hospital where he spat in the face of the nurse. Bob’s brother was a rear gunner in a Wellington and was traumatised when the Perspex in his turret was shot away around him. Having been fascinated with aircraft, ever since his brother’s friend gave him a taxi ride on his Avro 504k, Bob joined the ATC at the earliest opportunity, before joining the RAF proper and training to be a pilot. He took part in the Berlin Airlift. In later years Bob became a guide showing visitors around the aircraft of the museum and hearing their own stories and experiences. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:18:14 audio recording 00:17:43 audio recording Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending revision of OH transcription Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Germany Great Britain England--Cambridgeshire England--Lincolnshire England--Suffolk Germany--Berlin Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julie Williams Maureen Clarke 15 Squadron aircrew childhood in wartime lack of moral fibre Lancaster pilot RAF Coningsby RAF Mildenhall RAF Upwood RAF Wyton Spitfire https://ibccdigitalarchive.omeka.net/files/original/1875/46455/SHarriganD[Ser -DoB]v230002.mp3 523ce88877fb13518712fa48add88342 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-06-19 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire Description An account of the resource 34 items. Interviews with veterans recorded by Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire.<br /><br />Interview with Bertie Salvage <br />Three part interview with Dougie Marsh <br />Interview with Terry Hodson <br />Interview with Stan Waite Interview with John Langston<br />Interview with Nelson Nix <br />Two part interview with Bob Panton <br />Interview with Basil Fish <br />Interview with Ernest Groeger <br />Interview with Wilf Keyte <br />Interview with Reginald John Herring <br />Interview with Kathleen Reid <br />Interview with Allan Holmes <br />Interview with John Tomlinson <br />Interview with Cliff Thorpe and Roy Smith <br />Interview with Peter Scoley <br />Interview with Kenneth Ivan Duddell <br />Interview with Christopher Francis Allison <br />Interview with Bernard Bell <br />Interview with George Arthur Bell <br />Interview with George William Taplin <br />Interview with Richard Moore <br />Interview with Kenneth Edgar Neve <br />Interview with Annie Mary Blood <br />Interview with Dennis Brader <br />Interview with Les Stedman <br />Interview with Anthony Edward Mason <br />Interview with Anne Morgan Rose Harcombe<br /> <p>The following interviews have been moved to the relevant collections.<br /><span>Interview with&nbsp;<a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46454">Kathleen Reid</a></span><br />Interview with Wing Commander <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46467">Kenneth Cook DFC</a><br />Interview with&nbsp;<a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46456">Colin Cole</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/46464">Charles Avey</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46470">John Bell</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46459">Les Rutherford</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46460">James Douglas Hudson</a></p> Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document RH: Right. Interviewer: Hello there. Just for the record could you just please give your full name and date of birth. RH: Yeah. My name is Reginald John Herring and I was born on the 25th of the 4th 1930. Interviewer: Ok. Thanks. My name is Dave Harrigan and I’ll be just carrying out the interview with Reg. Reg, then, well let’s just start really before the war obviously. RH: Yeah. Interviewer: Just to talk a bit about your family background where you came from. Family history if you like and then we’ll just proceed through. RH: Yes. Well, briefly I was born in Hackney. I had three brothers, three sisters and we moved from Hackney, they were going to pull the house down. I should say also at this point that my mother had died when I was six years old. So at that point we moved from Hackney to a place called Becontree. At that point my elder sister was married and away from the home. My second sister was away living in Norfolk with her friend. Her boyfriend. My third sister was engaged to be married and my eldest brother was already married. My second eldest brother had moved away to Wolverhampton to get married and I was left with my father and my elder brother Joe who was four years older than I. At this point it was during the beginning of the Phoney War. One thing that is vivid which I made a note of there is the barrage balloon incident at Whipps Cross Hospital, near Bridge Road where they hoisted a barrage balloon. We were all excited about it and so forth. Then the Phoney War went on. In the meantime, apparently I understand now that we were not at that time entitled to an Anderson shelter. We didn’t qualify for one so dad decided to build one and we were banned from going to the end of the garden until he’d finished it. This project involved the half rolls of mangles, wooden mangles and I don’t know if you can remember these wooden mangles or not but they are split into two half-moon sections. So we had, I don’t know how many of these mangle rolls delivered or dad brought them along but we were not allowed to go down there until he’d finished. And the great day come. It was a Sunday. I remember it being a Sunday and off we went down the end of the garden to see this wonderful shelter that he’d built which looked like Fort Knox with all the wood and as I say the dirt and a couple of little shelves inside for two candles apparently. Well, we said, ‘Oh yes, this is fine dad. Great.’ You know, ‘This is marvellous.’ Well, the following week it rained like hell and the whole lot collapsed. So we still [laughs] we still were not entitled to an Anderson shelter but by this time the six months had gone by and the war had actually started so we were evacuated, Joe and I, my brother. And the first evacuation was to Sizewell on the east coast. We weren’t there terribly long, about a month or so when for no reason we were aware of we suddenly got moved from there over to a place called Hockley Heath, twelve miles west of Birmingham. It wasn’t very pleasant. It was a detached home. Sorry, a semi-detached home with a Welsh family lived on one side and the people we were living with was, the husband was Welsh and the wife was English. The husband was a very stern man and we didn’t very much care for him at all. But by this time the time was creeping on. We had the usual things a child would have to do. Chopping wood and my particular job was to keep this water container full of water because we had no gas. We had no electricity. The lighting was an oil lamp that came down from the ceiling and it was, and the battery powered radio [pause] I’m going a bit too fast here. By this time Joe was now fourteen and he disappeared. He was taken back home. Apparently because he was fourteen and dad said he was ready for work so he couldn’t stay there. So I was now left on my own with this family. And the two children next door didn’t like me at all. I was a London boy. They didn’t like me. Anyway, time went on and as I say my duty was to fill this water bin up and also chop the wood. Keep the woodshed full of chopped wood. So this went on. If I wanted to I couldn’t, I was never allowed into the best room. We had a kitchen sort of with a wood burning stove in the corner but the best room I never went, actually went in. I went through it to go up the stairs to go to bed but I was never allowed to sit in it. So if they had their battery powered radio on with accumulators obviously I could listen to it through the wall. So I was quite content to listen to the radio through the wall until it was time for me to have to go to bed. And then we had a bus that took us to school. We had an incident on the bus. Now, again I was a bit of an outcast being a London boy. I wasn’t a local lad. I didn’t mix too well so I used to sit at the back of the bus and I always stayed there. And there was an incident with a malicious, wrong word, a girl was molested down at the front end. The bus driver by the way had a sort of a metal screen around the back. I can’t recall it exactly but he could hear the noise but couldn’t see what was going on and he wouldn’t stop the bus. I don’t know for what reason until we got to the school where there was a big kerfuffle and we was all taken into this room and interviewed. Nothing was said. We were all interviewed and the following day the bus turned up again as usual for school and there was this lady accompanying the students on the bus. So we all go to school again and again we get interviewed. Come back home and I can remember the woman saying to me, ‘You’d better go straight to bed because I don’t know what he is going to do when he comes home.’ Which frightened the life out of me. So now I went up to bed and shed a few tears. And then I heard a knock at the door and the voice I heard was, ‘Well, I think it’s better to leave him alone for tonight.’ So with that I didn’t hear any more and this lady went away. There were no telephones by the way. There was no way of communication other than by physically knocking on the door. Who this lady was I don’t know to this day. The following morning thinking I was going back to school again I started to get dressed and the lady came up and said, ‘I want you to put on your best clothes.’ She said, ‘We’re going to the Bullring at Birmingham,’ she said. ‘Apparently,’ she said, ‘Whatever was said about you was wrong and this is a present.’ So off we go to the Bullring at Birmingham. I’m wondering what I’m going to get as a present and we go into this ironmonger’s shop. Came out with a three quarter size axe. And then it dawned on me what the present was. It was for me for the wood from the shed. So anyway, I was out in the woods, the two lads next door and myself and looking for broken trees and sort of to cut up and they decided they wanted to have a go at me with birch branches. So they started battering me with these birch branches so I lost my temper and chased them back home with the axe. Shortly after that I got called back to London. Dad called me back to London and I then went on to Canterbury Road School and I was there for about two years I think. At that time my sister Maud who lived in Canterbury Road and her husband said to my father, ‘Well, we can give you one room for you and Reg to live in,’ you know, ‘For the time being.’ So dad and I lived in this one room. My sister had never done anything to it. Never cleaned it or anything like that. She had one child at this point and time went on. We had a couple of air raids then one in particular where we’d, we had a Morris shelter or a Morrison shelter which as you know is still famous with children in the second room at the front and the siren had gone and things were getting a bit noisy. So I grabbed the young boy, Terry, the youngest son and got him in to the shelter and my sister was just following us in when this bomb dropped. The next thing I know is that I’ve managed to pull the grill up. I remember getting the grill up. The grill was a framed mesh that you could drop down. I remember pulling it up and then it was all rubble then. Or dirt and rubble, noise, darkness. And then we heard the voices. ‘Are you ok? Are you ok?’ And these hands came in and started pulling the rubble and dust away and brought the grill down and as I made a note in there I said the faces, everybody’s face was white and grey. We all looked the same you know [laughs] It was quite weird. We got out at that particular point and then disaster struck. My sister had come into the room which she didn’t normally do and she’d found bed bugs under the bedframe. Now, the bed frame was the old-fashioned frame of two steel, one forward, one aft. Sorry one frame at one and one into the other and the bed itself was in a silver frame with a mesh on it dropped into it and it was in those joints where these bed bugs were coming. Now, my sister obviously told her husband who was a captain in the Home Guard and I could hear him having strong words with my father and the next thing I knew was we’d moved. We moved to one room in Leslie Road in Clapton. That home is still there. I’ve got it on the internet. So we got this one room. I’m now, what? Fourteen? About fifteen. Fifteen, sixteen years old. Dad had a girlfriend, a lady friend and when we moved there she said, ‘Well, I’ll take Reg’s ration coupons and his clothing coupons and I’ll see that he gets —' you know. Well, that didn’t happen. I never saw them again and I never got any clothes from her or anything else. Dad never stayed there. I say he never stayed there that’s wrong but he very infrequently stayed there so I’m more or less left on my own in this room. And the situation was that we had, there was a bathroom there but they’d boarded the bath over and left a bowl, a washing up bowl and there was a bucket with a lid on it that you could shut, put over the bucket and that was our toilet. And I used to have to take this bucket, it was terribly embarrassing for me at that age to have to take this bucket down the stairs, through their kitchen and empty it into their toilet at the bottom of the stairs and then wash it out and bring it back up again. And then horror of horrors I discovered more bed bugs. So I went out and bought myself a couple of boxes of Swan Vestas and I rolled the mattress back as far as I could get it at one end and I literally sat there burning these bed bugs. One in each corner and I moved the mattress back and burned the other corner. And when I saw my father I said, ‘I can’t stay here any longer. You know, I’ve had enough.’ So I went and joined the Navy. So I must have been seventeen and a half then. So that’s basically the, that part of the history. The rest of it is Naval. Interviewer: I think it would be interesting just to so what was the actual date that you joined the Navy? RH: I joined on the 1st of January 1948. Interviewer: Right. So obviously after training there you just, you were part of the post-war fleet really. RH: Yes, I mean I don’t know if you want the movements. I mean it was quite a quick. Interviewer: Yeah. Please. Yeah. RH: I went to Royal Arthur which I now understand was Butlins at the time or before the war. I was there for six weeks and then I was transferred then to HMS Anson which was a thirty five thousand ton battleship for a further six weeks which I then got myself into serious trouble. I knew nothing about the Navy like most of the new lads. Nothing. So the routine of having to change and get dressed into another part of the uniform, working rig they called it and be up on deck in twenty five minutes was beyond my capabilities. I couldn’t shower and, I couldn’t do it. I couldn’t shower, get changed, get up on deck which was five decks below the main deck, right [laughs] to be on parade in time. And of course, having a shower in stone cold and it wasn’t fresh water it was salt water I couldn’t stop myself I had to urinate in the shower and one of the old ABs, able seaman who had seen the last war and the war before that, you know collared me. Put me in the rattle on charge. So I was then charged and my punishment was to be up on deck at 5 o’clock in the morning with two other lads who were also under punishment and we had a hundred weight of potatoes and we had to peel them by 7 o’clock. Interviewer: By hand. RH: That was part of the punishment. The other part of the punishment was jumping over six inch anchor cable with a rifle over your head. You know, to hop over the cable and hop right around the [unclear] front end, back over the starboard and port anchor and come back again and then hold the rifle out at arm’s length for thirty seconds. And the, what do you call it? The sight would make a dent in your arm. Actually bruise it, you know. We’d done this for seven days I think it was on the trot. It was all good fun. Interviewer: So once you’d been indoctrinated then obviously we talked a bit about how the Korean war broke out. Would you like to mention that a little bit? RH: Yes. That was quite quick for me. Theres a routine in the Navy that you were obliged to look at the notice board every morning. That’s the first priority. The reason for that is to see if you’ve been drafted. You’re being sent somewhere else. So I was in, hang on I’m in advance of myself. Yeah. Prior to that I was on bomb and mine wreck dispersal. Do you want that bit or shall we just move to the — Interviewer: We’ll move onto the thing. Yeah. RH: Yeah. Yeah, I was on HMS Tyrie, which was a trawler. There’s a photograph of it there. A converted trawler for wreck dispersal and we blew up wrecks on the east coast. Big [unclear] they were quite large [blows] because we used to use pairs of five hundred weight charges tied together. Take them out and you’d have two depending on the size of the wreck you’d have probably two on one side of the side of the boat, two on the other side of the boat. Not the ship. The sea boat. Right. You would have previously located that wreck with ASDIC, now called Sonar and you’d drop a marker buoy on it. So the following day you’d come back ready to drop your charges down alongside the ship. The idea being that either to blow a trench one side and then blow the ship or the remains of the ship into the trench or take off the superstructure. It had to be at a certain level below high water for the passage of big ships. Interviewer: Right. RH: Coming through the Channel. So that was the theory. We’d had a particularly nasty one where we’d lowered the charges and we were ready to blow and I’ve written what happened then. The boat sailed off for about two miles away and the sea boat then had a big reel of cable in it, electrical cable with a chunk of old copper iron plate for the earth and set the detonator charger, you know. And you would go by the buoy marker as to where the charger was obviously. Now, we didn’t realise it. Nobody realised it. Unfortunately, the gunner who was in charge of all this operation had gone sick and was replaced by another gunner who was very very young and unfortunately, no didn’t quite know what was going on. The chief torpedo man told him that it was unwise to set the charge until we’d done our last run and made sure that the buoy hadn’t moved. But he decided we’d carry on. Anyway, we blew the charge and we were too close to it and this three quarter ton reel of, three quarter underweight not a ton went over the side along with the stoker who was in charge of the engine. He got a broken arm, the coxswain got a broken ankle because the rudder came down and whacked him in the leg. So it was panic stations for a while and of course we got the first wave of the blow. So we managed to get the boat in line with it so we’d got bows on to it and took the, took the wave. In the meantime, the ship hurried along at ten noughts, we couldn’t go any faster [laughs] and picked us up. That was the Tyrie. I then went in the depot and went on to bomb and mine disposal and we had to go out to a Grimsby trawler during the night that had picked up a mine in its net. They wouldn’t let it in harbour obviously because of the, and if you could imagine this big net full of fish and stuck inside the fish was a dirty great mine swinging on a davit. So, anyway, we get out there and get aboard and it was an old World War One mine corroded, terribly corroded but in the compartment of the mine itself you’ve got quite a large airspace. You’ve got the main charge but quite a nice airspace and which had got compressed air in it and you’d got the detonator and primer and then the main charge. You’d got a detonator, primer, charge in that order. So the primarily thing is to get the detonator out first. Once you’d got that you were fifty percent safe. So to get to this situation we said to the skipper, ‘Well, you’ll have to lower the mine down on the deck.’ Bearing in mind that with a trawler there was plenty of light so it’s fair, you know. So plenty, so we got the coconut matting and lowered the mine down on the deck. And then we cut them out the trawler net and the skipper was screaming his head off because it was about three hundred pound he said for a new net. So we cut the net and all these fish came pouring out all over the place. You’ve now got a deck full of slippery fish, blood, guts and all the rest of it hanging out and a horrible looking mine sitting there very forlorn, you know [laughs] So anyway fortunately we spotted the detonator so the officer in charge said to me, ‘Alright, Herring.’ I don’t know, they don’t call me Reg. Herring. He said, ‘Put that in your pocket and get up on the bridge.’ I said, ‘Yes, sir. I put it in my pocket and I trundled up to the bridge. The skipper said, ‘What are you doing up here?’ I said, ‘Well, I’ve been ordered to come up here with the detonator.’ Well as soon as I said that he shot off [unclear] [laughs] So I’m standing there with this detonator in my pocket. I mean it’s dead, it wouldn’t do anything and we got the, got the primer out and declared the mine safe etcetera. So I then got the order to throw that detonator over the side and that was the end of that episode. Another episode was a bit sillier which involved a callout by a man. I don’t know what harbour it was, I don’t know what seaside resort it was but this chappy had previously reported a landmine on the coast. On the, on the foreshore. And the way I understood it was that if a mine was found above high water it belonged to the Army. If it was found below high water it belonged to the Navy. So we got called out and he had previously reported a mine, a landmine and it had been dealt with by the previous squad to me. So I was the new boy in this squad. You know, the do it all lad. So off we go down to wherever it was and I can remember there being a jetty with a load of people on it in the distance. But the chappy said he’d marked it with some stones but unfortunately the tide was coming in so we had to be a bit sharp about it. So we formed up in line abreast and shuffled our way through the surf until we, one of us stumbled across this little pile of stones you see. I say little pile, it was quite a big pile. Right. Ok, we’ve located it. By this time the sea is now coming in urgently so the gunnery officer in charge said, ‘Right,’ he said, ‘Herring, get out there,’ he said, ‘With the phone.’ We had been a portable handset phone and, ‘Get out there,’ he said, ‘And see if you can feel around it and tell us what the measurements are and so forth, roughly.’ I said, ‘Right.’ So I’ve got my hands in this sand and silt, I’ve got the sea coming up and I can’t swim by the way. I’ve got the sea coming up over my shoulders and I’m saying, ‘Well, I think it’s about two foot wide, sir and about two inches, three inches deep.’ Because as far as you put your hands in the sand it came back again at you. So you know you couldn’t really tell. I said, ‘It’s got a handle in the middle.’ So, I heard a sort of a mumble. ‘Right. Ok. Get a line on it. It’s a mark —’ something or other. I could only just get this in the phones. So I tie the rope around the handle. It’s quite true this is. We all got back to the shore, pull the cord tight on this so-called mine and the four of us got on to the end of it and heaved. Nothing happened. So we commandeered four policemen. Now, by this time the crowd on the jetty had got bigger. They was quite some way away but they had got bigger. And the four policemen and ourselves heaved on this line so the order is two, six, heave. You’ve probably heard it yourself. So anyway, ‘Two, six, heave,’ and we were all flat on our backs and out comes a brightly green painted dustbin lid. Interviewer: Oh no. RH: So [laughs] it was just after that I was sent to Korea [laughs] Interviewer: As a punishment [laughs] RH: I was causing too much trouble I think. Interviewer: I agree. That’s marvellous. I mean we’re getting near the end of our time but if its ok with you I’d just take a quick resume really of your service in Korea. You know, what actions that you saw. RH: Yeah. Interviewer: The ship you served on. RH: I was shipped out to Hong Kong and I was supposed to pick up the Cossack at Hong Kong. Interviewer: That’s HMS Cossack. RH: Sorry, the HMS Cossack. Yes. But unfortunately, I was unwell and was transferred to the Peak Hospital which is or was right on the top of the mountain at Hong Kong. There was a Navy hospital here. In the meantime, Cossack had sailed off to Japan ready to load up for the Korean action presumably. Anyway, I was sent to the Peak and after about five weeks I came back down again and I joined a New Zealand frigate for passage to Hong Kong, to Seoul. That was what I was told. They were going to Seoul because nobody really knew anything at that point in time and I joined the frigate and we sailed out of Hong Kong and I was, I went down to the Mess desk and the Mess deck was in total silence. And that’s totally unusual for a ship. Everybody was dead quiet. And it turned out that when you were in harbour on a, on a warship they normally put an awning over the quarter deck so the officers can have tea parties and so forth while they are in harbour. But as soon as you leave harbour you take it down and this rating had gone along the guard rail itself to take down part of the awning and slipped and gone underneath the [port screw]. So the journey out to Cossack was quite miserable. It was only about, I don’t know twenty four hours or so. The two ships met in some bay. I don’t know what bay. I don’t know where it was but this frigate joined up with the Cossack and they lowered the boat and I jumped in it. Take the boat over to the Cossack, climbed the ladder, saluted the quarter deck and before I could get down below she was underway and off to clear. At 5 o’clock in the morning we were firing all guns and we had anti-shock lamps and every one blew. We had, what was it? Coconut. Not coconut. Cork. We’d had corks all over the deck head. So apart from the broken glass and everything else we were covered in cork. That was our opening attack [laughs]. The next thing that invaded us was cockroaches. So I mean the ship had never fired it’s guns for a long time. It hadn’t fired them since the, I think it was the Narvik raid. It had been fired with dummy shells, you know blank shells but never the actual cordite shells so of course the kick back was tremendous. It went right through the ship and all the cockroaches thought we’ve had enough of this and fell down like, you know [laughs] So you got a dinner full of cockroaches. What did we do then? Yes, we’d done a lot of secret things that no one would ever admit to. We had a job to go and apparently to pick up this man who was supposed to have been an agent for South Korea and we had twelve bods on board and by God they looked ferocious. They were blacked up. They were bearded. They weren’t Naval people at all and they sat on the torpedo deck during the passage and we’d, we’d hoisted up alongside on the port bow. I remember a dhow, a small dhow. I don’t know the details of it but I found out afterwards that the idea was that they were to be taken to a certain point up on the Korean coast, loaded on the dhow, sailed off and capture this bloke. They caught the bloke because I’ve seen photographs. Well, I’ve seen the bloke himself with a bullet through his head on the upper deck of our ship. That’s another little story. They brought him back but they wouldn’t bring him back alive. They would not bring him on board alive. They insisted that they kill him first and they did. They killed him first and they sailed off on their dhow and that was the end of that. So we had this body in a cabinet, a steel cabinet on the deck which normally held brooms and scrubbers and things like that you know. And this body was temporarily bunged into this cabinet. Right. Now, we have the middle watch coming up. The middle watch is from twelve to 4 o’clock in the morning and the gunnery people are always on standby. They’re not at action stations but they were at what they called cruising stations whereby they can immediately be at action stations if required. So therefore they’ve got to stay by their guns. So there’s one man on the phone, sitting on his guns who has to be on watch all the time. The other three or four of them could lay down on the decking if they wanted to. But they couldn’t leave the deck. They had to be in their positions. Now, apparently, I don’t know who organised it to this day, how it was worked out but the body during the middle watch was taken up and laid alongside the now prone sleeping sailors who were dozing off during the middle watch. When it came to the end of the watch they all sort of woke themselves up and started to come down the deck for their food and which left one bod laying down who nobody knew about. So, ‘Come on Harry, what the hell are you doing.’ You know. ‘Get up. It’s the end of the watch.’ And of course, that’s what they’d done they’d put the body on the deck at the same time [laughs] So — Interviewer: Military humour never changes does it? RH: No. No. Interviewer: Yeah. RH: But — Interviewer: Ok. Well, thank you very much Reg. We’ve come to the end of the time now. RH: Yeah. That’s alright. Interviewer: It’s a wonderful tale you’ve told there. Very eloquent. Thank you very much and we will be in touch with you. Ok. RH: Alright. Fine. Yeah. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Reginald John Herring 1014-Herring, Reginald CJ Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SHarriganD[Ser#-DoB]v23 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dave Harrigan This Interview was recorded by Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Civilian Royal Navy Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:36:25 audio recording Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending revision of OH transcription Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Description An account of the resource Reg Herring was living in London with his father and elder brother at the start of the war. His father built a shelter that collapsed after a heavy rainfall. Reg was evacuated to Sizewell and then to near Birmingham. After the war Reg returned to London and decided to join the Navy, where he worked as bomb and mine disposal. He had many interesting years in the Navy including a strange mission to collect the body of a spy. Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Great Britain England--Birmingham England--London England--Sizewell Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julie Williams Maureen Clarke childhood in wartime evacuation shelter